It has come to my attention that this world and much of its youth is EXTREMELY
violent. Like many of you on this website, I surf the web a lot, watch videos on
Youtube, etc...and frankly some of the things I find disgust me. Today I was
looking up backyard wrestling, you know just to see what kids are up to these
days. What I found was the stupedist thing ever. I mean I know you've probably
seen backyard wrestling at least once in your life. That can't be healthy.
People slamming each other on the ground and into cars, hitting each other with
light tubes...it's just...I can't even describe it. It's foolish. I mean I get
that kids are looking for thrills, but people seriously get hurt doing that
stuff.
They get the ideas from watching TV and playing violent video games. I will
NEVER understand why teenagers play these games then get the urge to go outside
and try them. I'm happy that the whole world isn't so influential. It's like all
of these school shootings going on. The Columbine shooters made it popular, now
it seems that every lonely kid with a few enemies thinks that the best way to
solve their problems is to get all the guns they can, go to school, and start
shooting people. And people think that they have to make gun laws stricter. I'm
going to tell you something, that's not going to stop them from gettnig weapons.
Drugs are illegal, but people still get them.
What these kids need is someone to talk to. I will say that it's not all their
fault, they need someone to talk to. They have problems and they turn to their
video games and movies for escape until they feel that there's nothing left to
live for, so they go all out and start killing people. Maybe I'm wrong, but
doesn't it seem like that? Just recently a kid in Finland killed what six or
seven people at his school? Then, just like every other coward before him, he
kills himself to escape.
Maybe I'm being harsh, but this is a subject that needs to be addressed now.
More and more teens are choosing the "I'm gonna kill those who look down
upon me" rather than "Let me talk to them and find out what's going
on." Some of these kids are being made fun of which makes them want to kill
more, but wow, come on they're just words. They can be ignored, but something in
their heads tells them to make them pay instead of walk away, those people
aren't worth it.
I think violent video games and TV shows and movies greatly contribute as well
as Marilyn Manson. I don't need to remind how how many violent games there are
out there, but I know some people might get mad at me for accusing Manson like
this. I will say that it's not his fault, none of it is and I can't recall a
time when Manson told someone "If someone makes fun of you, kill
them." It's just his attitude to only care for himself that inspires people
to do this kind of thing. This also isn't meant to disscourage video games and
shows. It's just some people aren't mature enough to watch or play these things
and realize that IT IS VIRTUAL REALITY. I don't mean to offend anyone, but this
has been on my mind a lot and I feel that if something isn't done soon, it could
get A WHOLE LOT worse.
Please tell me what you think and what we can do to make this world a better and
safer place.
The primary solution is called parenting and unfortunately too many so called
parents fail miserably at it and they just want something else to blame instead
of looking at how they screwed up. Not that its to surprising since most people
are too dishonest to own up to their own screw ups. People are fat because of
the fast food industry? Please...people get fat cause they eat to d@#$ much and
don't practice self control (like everything else there are a few (very few)
exceptions).
If parents would take the time to actually spend time with their kids and learn
about their kids many of the really idiotic events would never occur (I say many
because there is not really anything that can be called idiot proof). In
addition parents would learn to recognize the more severe changes that occur
when kids start down certain roads.
As for violence, well anyone that believes video games or movies are real need
professional help anyway. For those select few that do recognize that fact but
try to imitate them anyway, well heres hoping you don't die even though it would
probably improve the gene pool.
Well I will agree that a lot of the time it is the parent's fault, but not
always. There are good parents that try to raise their kids right and the kids
just have too many mental problems to recognize the fact that they have loving
parents. One of the Columbine shooters had a really close knit family(not
assuming that he was happy) and that didn't stop him. It's not always the
parent's fault.
Quote by Kage-OnitenshiThey get
the ideas from watching TV and playing violent video games. I will NEVER
understand why teenagers play these games then get the urge to go outside and
try them.
I agree violence is a problem, but you are generalizing too much. I think the
number of kids who play violent video games and reenact them is much, much
smaller than you seem to think. I think you have it backwards in some ways too:
it's more of a trend for TV shows and other violent media to be created by
influence of what people have done, and not so much the other way around.
Quote by Kage-OnitenshiWhat these
kids need is someone to talk to. I will say that it's not all their fault, they
need someone to talk to. They have problems and they turn to their video games
and movies for escape until they feel that there's nothing left to live for, so
they go all out and start killing people. Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't it seem
like that?
While it seems like that, it's normally not the whole story. There are also kids
who do have people that want to help them and try, but some kids refuse the
help. And then there are kids that seem perfectly normal until it's too late...
Quote by Kage-OnitenshiI think
violent video games and TV shows and movies greatly contribute as well as
Marilyn Manson. I don't need to remind how how many violent games there are out
there, but I know some people might get mad at me for accusing Manson like this.
I will say that it's not his fault, none of it is and I can't recall a time when
Manson told someone "If someone makes fun of you, kill them." It's
just his attitude to only care for himself that inspires people to do this kind
of thing. This also isn't meant to disscourage video games and shows. It's just
some people aren't mature enough to watch or play these things and realize that
IT IS VIRTUAL REALITY. I don't mean to offend anyone, but this has been on my
mind a lot and I feel that if something isn't done soon, it could get A WHOLE
LOT worse.
Though I don't particularly care for Marilyn Manson, I think it was a little
much to drag him into this... But anyways, I agree that there are people who
aren't mature enough to handle violent media, but with a lot of the research
I've had to do for Psychology I've encountered very little correlations between
the two things. I wouldn't say violent media is healthy, but I don't think it's
the cause of this behavior either. It's better to look at the kid's social life
at school and within the family.
Okay, so if we look into the kid's social life and family life, we would
probably find the main causes of their violent behavior. But some of these kids
come from good families and it's more so the social issues that drive them. If
this is so, how, would you say, we deal with this? I mean it's easy to spot some
of them, but it's like you said, some of them SEEM normal until it's too late.
The reason I started this thread is not to judge these kids, but to help them. I
want to know what we, as people, as humans should do to help these kids that are
like this, even if they don't want our help, we've got to do something. My
girlfriend's mother knew a woman who's son had plans of killing his mother and
bombing the local high school and they found letters of how he wanted to kill
his mother and bomb the school.
not to step on any toes or anything but most of that can be blamed on the
parent/guardian type thing, I mean come on if these "adults" would
take more interest and not snoop (that makes enemies) but simply sit and talk,
listen and learn then the kids won't be so proned to such violence at such a
young age, because regardless if the person is violent they will become violent
there is no way to halt this but slowing it down could be a start...I mean from
what I've read in the news walmart can only do so much the "adults"
need to help as well
Quote by angelxxuannot to step on any
toes or anything but most of that can be blamed on the parent/guardian type
thing, I mean come on if these "adults" would take more interest and
not snoop (that makes enemies) but simply sit and talk, listen and learn then
the kids won't be so proned to such violence at such a young age, because
regardless if the person is violent they will become violent there is no way to
halt this but slowing it down could be a start...I mean from what I've read in
the news walmart can only do so much the "adults" need to help as
well
I totally agree with you, the parents should help and "snooping" as
you put it is a big problem. I've noticed that a lot of the time parents go
behind their kids back and spy on them rather than sitting them down and having
a mature dissucsion out the problem.
violence comes from many things.. i mean like turning what they see into what
they do....
a lot of it comes from tv basically =/... tv... not video games lol... to be
honest..... i mean... i know a buncha people that play counter strike.. i don't
see them lugging around a gun or talking about shooting people ...
its just the person themselves and moreso what they dealt with growing in other
words.... parents.. BUT not only them... environment and peer pressure... they
could be dragged into the violence ya know =/
i mean... once someone hears " someone shot somebody because he played a
game " that really irritates me cause then the older people start to hate
games and try to ban it.... like thats 1 out of a million.. you should be
worrying about other stuff... i mean hell the people that ban games don't even
play the games... saying how they don't need to play it.. i still remember a
while back a few years ago when some company joined with mothers against drugs
was like making a list of most violent games..... dood.. the second most violent
game is like..... a snow boarding game.. wtf?! @_@............... lol goes to
show they don't even look into what they say and just label anything they
like..... environment... + parents.... + ... personal experiences and traumas...
basically create violence.... sure video games too but like lol honestly... its
like... watching gun grave and saying i wanna shoot people rofl
Quote by Nephilim07violence comes from
many things.. i mean like turning what they see into what they do....
a lot of it comes from tv basically =/... tv... not video games lol... to be
honest..... i mean... i know a buncha people that play counter strike.. i don't
see them lugging around a gun or talking about shooting people ...
its just the person themselves and moreso what they dealt with growing in other
words.... parents.. BUT not only them... environment and peer pressure... they
could be dragged into the violence ya know =/
i mean... once someone hears " someone shot somebody because he played a
game " that really irritates me cause then the older people start to hate
games and try to ban it.... like thats 1 out of a million.. you should be
worrying about other stuff... i mean hell the people that ban games don't even
play the games... saying how they don't need to play it.. i still remember a
while back a few years ago when some company joined with mothers against drugs
was like making a list of most violent games..... dood.. the second most violent
game is like..... a snow boarding game.. wtf?! @_@............... lol goes to
show they don't even look into what they say and just label anything they
like..... environment... + parents.... + ... personal experiences and traumas...
basically create violence.... sure video games too but like lol honestly... its
like... watching gun grave and saying i wanna shoot people
rofl
You're right, a lot of people don't do what they see, if they did, then the
whole would would have guns. But games do have a lot to do with it. They enjoy
killing with the controller and some kids do what they do in video games. I'm
not saying that video games are the only source of violence, but it's just as at
fault as anything else. And it's also like I said earlier, there's nothing wrong
with games, I'm all for them, but some kids aren't mature enough to keep the
violence on the TV screen. Video games inspire a lot of violence whether you
realize it or not. You and the people you know are obviously mature enough to
know that you can kill whoever and whatever you want in the game, and in real
life thoese people won't come back, you can get hurt, and there are no extra
lives.
are you kidding me? pick a history book or read the bible. kids doing stupid,
violent stuff is nothing.
merged: 11-11-2007 ~ 11:37am
Humans are animals. we're still operating on the reptilian brain. Fight or
flight. Kill or be killed. we're violent by nature, its just that some are more
so than the others.
Quote by maverickmechanicare you
kidding me? pick a history book or read the bible. kids doing stupid, violent
stuff is nothing.
merged: 11-11-2007 ~ 11:37am
Humans are animals. we're still operating on the reptilian brain. Fight or
flight. Kill or be killed. we're violent by nature, its just that some are more
so than the others.
It doesn't matter what the history books say and no one can proove that the
bible is a true story. It is not true that humans are violent by nature but
rather they succum to their basic instincts in what they 'beileve to be the
right thing'. It just so happens that some people's views on the right things
are not the same as others. What is right to someone may not be right to
another, but everyone seems to be forgetting the point of this post in the first
place. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO? We know the problems. Peolple are violent, no
matter what the cause, it's all over the world, but what I am asking of anyone
who cares to read this post is that they be mature enough to help think of a
solution for the violence. That would be better than bickering about the
sources.
merged: 11-11-2007 ~ 12:31pm
And besides, I'm not talking about incodents that too place years ago, I'm
talking about the recent problems. No one now can prevent what has happened in
the past. And even if the Bible is true, it still stands that it's in the past
and is not a problem now.
For now, the only thing I'm going to be doing is keeping a big stick handy (not
the nicest neighborhood here). But even I don't see quite that much violence
when I think about it.
If you're asking what we, as a society, can do, I'm afraid you might not looking
at things in the right perspective. The truth is, the violence issue is as much,
if not more, an issue of perception rather than of the actual violence.
Believe it or not, we're in one of the less violent societies in history, and
certainly among the least violent in the world today. Because of that, we pay
far greater attention to each incident, blowing things out of proportion and
thus never realizing this fact. The truth is that most violence, even in our
society, is of a nature that is, at best, marginally influenced by things like
televison, music, and games. The destructive, damaging violence, is most often
linked to criminal and gang activity, which was no different, in either nature
or frequency, before the advent of these things. And more importantly, even when
there are changes, these things become scapegoats that cloud the real reasons,
which are much simpler, and much more difficult to deal with.
Personally, I don't particularly mind violence unless it causes notable harm.
People have been coming home with black eyes and bruises for as long as there
have been homes to come to and people to come. Take this backyard wrestling for
example. Does it result in serious injury? Are there unwilling participants? Is
there any serious property damage? Usually, the answer to all of these is no.
What this means is that these kids are being violent in a less destructive
manner, which leaves them less likely do display destructive violence. Oh, it's
not as nice as many sports would be, or good, controlled martial arts, but it
satisfies their need for violence without causing significant backlash.
Oh, there are certainly issues in our society that need working, but keep in
mind that fixing our skewed perceptions, which lead to horrible overreactions
and misdirected criticism and effort, is among the top issues on that list, and
it's far more important than the violence issue.
Quote by MontyJGFor now, the only thing
I'm going to be doing is keeping a big stick handy (not the nicest neighborhood
here). But even I don't see quite that much violence when I think about
it.
If you're asking what we, as a society, can do, I'm afraid you might not looking
at things in the right perspective. The truth is, the violence issue is as much,
if not more, an issue of perception rather than of the actual violence.
Believe it or not, we're in one of the less violent societies in history, and
certainly among the least violent in the world today. Because of that, we pay
far greater attention to each incident, blowing things out of proportion and
thus never realizing this fact. The truth is that most violence, even in our
society, is of a nature that is, at best, marginally influenced by things like
televison, music, and games. The destructive, damaging violence, is most often
linked to criminal and gang activity, which was no different, in either nature
or frequency, before the advent of these things. And more importantly, even when
there are changes, these things become scapegoats that cloud the real reasons,
which are much simpler, and much more difficult to deal with.
Personally, I don't particularly mind violence unless it causes notable harm.
People have been coming home with black eyes and bruises for as long as there
have been homes to come to and people to come. Take this backyard wrestling for
example. Does it result in serious injury? Are there unwilling participants? Is
there any serious property damage? Usually, the answer to all of these is no.
What this means is that these kids are being violent in a less destructive
manner, which leaves them less likely do display destructive violence. Oh, it's
not as nice as many sports would be, or good, controlled martial arts, but it
satisfies their need for violence without causing significant backlash.
Oh, there are certainly issues in our society that need working, but keep in
mind that fixing our skewed perceptions, which lead to horrible overreactions
and misdirected criticism and effort, is among the top issues on that list, and
it's far more important than the violence issue.
Whether or not perseption is an issue, violence still does exist and it still,
in my opinion needs to be dealt with. An I never once believed that the country
I live in is on the high charts when there are much more violent people over
seas. And I don't speak of the nation as violence, just those certain
individuals.
What you are saying is that violence is natural for human beings. Let me ask you
this. Where does maturity and state of mind come in the natural scale? What
you're saying is that the things responsible for influencing violence are not
the real problem. You have failed to state what the true problem is.
I respect the fact that you don't care much for violence so long as it doesn't
present a problem large enough to gain world-wide attention. So I guess the real
question for you is whether you supoprt human nature or maturity and good will,
which this country seems to stress so much when dealing with others. I'm not
trying to stop these kids from wrestling, I'm just saying that I'm against it.
God forbide if I would try to stop them, they might end up being the next Eric
and Dylan.
And as for fixing perceptions that can come once the damage has stopped. When a
fire starts, you can't sit around and preceve how the fire started. The longer
it is left untended to, the more it will spread. Once the fire is stopped, then
you can think about it as much as you want and thus with the fire gone, figure
out a way to stop it from happening agian.
I do have a problem with violent kids doing things like backyeard wrestling, but
I will be honest and say that it's better than them doing it on innocent people.
I would never interfear with them so long as they are all willing to do what
they do with others who want to do it. My main concern is innocent people being
dragged into someone's issues for whateve reason.
I would not go so far as to say that violence is a natural aspect of human
nature that is encompassed and expressed by everyone. However, I would most
certainly say that violence is not UNnatural. You look at this backyard
wrestling and frown, indicating that it's an issue that needs to be dealt with.
But I see a continuation of an ancient tradition that has endured throughout
human history. Thus, I have to ask, how many young boys NEVER get involved in
fights, NEVER do a bit of roughhousing, NEVER get involved in such violent acts
at least once in awhile? Heck, even I, one of the most nonviolent people out
there, have done such activities when I was younger. Maybe not daily, or even
weekly, but certainly often enough to that I have to admit it. It may be
different from the past due to cultural changes, but we tend to see a much
greater problem than there is. That is more in tune with true human nature than
the whole violence thing.
You used a nice fire analogy, but I'll give you an addition to that: do you go
ballistic when you see a campfire? Do you call the fire department everytime a
bonfire is set? Do you frantically try and put out a cooking fire? You only put
serious effort into stopping a fire that is out of control, and if you treat one
that's under control the same way, all you do is piss off the ones who set and
maintained it, causing more harm than good.
I'll also emphasize that there is still no clear evidence that violence in the
media is the cause of violence at home. You're free to believe it, and you're
free to look for ways to change it (good luck, you'll need it more than I do).
However, they're free to do it, and I'm free to accept it, and others are free
to even support it. Again, I don't mind as long as its for fun. It's only when
things get serious that I see a problem. But that's just me, and I recognize
that fact.
As for changing things, if you want to do that, you're going to have to look at
the very core of our society and its culture. At best, the "causes"
you mention are merely symptoms of the true "problem". They exist and
maintain popularity only because it is there, and they are prevalent only
because of their popularity. They're actually under much greater influence from
the people than the people are from them, which is an often overlooked fact.
That's the nature of media after all.
Even the parenting issue is at least as much symptom as cause. As any
psychologist will tell you, parents (and family), while important, are far from
the only major factor in one's development. Children learn from society as a
whole, and even the best parents are hard-pressed to beat out other social
factors, and are in fact themselves vulnerable to such influences.
So, in the end, if you want to stop things like this, it means you're fighting
to change the very nature of our current society. Oh, you can possibly manage to
exert some influence with enough help, but it's a long, hard road, and I
wouldn't bet on your success. So I'll say again: good luck with that.
Just to throw my two cents into this, if your gona blame TV, movies, and games
for violence in our society. Well I guess you can kiss anime like Deathnote,
Ikkitousen, Ergo Proxy and the like, which are all really good anime, good bye.
And as for video games, well did you know that when GTA3 came out violence in
America dropped by 7%?
Quote by MontyJGI would not go so far as
to say that violence is a natural aspect of human nature that is encompassed and
expressed by everyone. However, I would most certainly say that violence is not
UNnatural. You look at this backyard wrestling and frown, indicating that it's
an issue that needs to be dealt with. But I see a continuation of an ancient
tradition that has endured throughout human history. Thus, I have to ask, how
many young boys NEVER get involved in fights, NEVER do a bit of roughhousing,
NEVER get involved in such violent acts at least once in awhile? Heck, even I,
one of the most nonviolent people out there, have done such activities when I
was younger. Maybe not daily, or even weekly, but certainly often enough to that
I have to admit it. It may be different from the past due to cultural changes,
but we tend to see a much greater problem than there is. That is more in tune
with true human nature than the whole violence thing.
You used a nice fire analogy, but I'll give you an addition to that: do you go
ballistic when you see a campfire? Do you call the fire department everytime a
bonfire is set? Do you frantically try and put out a cooking fire? You only put
serious effort into stopping a fire that is out of control, and if you treat one
that's under control the same way, all you do is piss off the ones who set and
maintained it, causing more harm than good.
I'll also emphasize that there is still no clear evidence that violence in the
media is the cause of violence at home. You're free to believe it, and you're
free to look for ways to change it (good luck, you'll need it more than I do).
However, they're free to do it, and I'm free to accept it, and others are free
to even support it. Again, I don't mind as long as its for fun. It's only when
things get serious that I see a problem. But that's just me, and I recognize
that fact.
As for changing things, if you want to do that, you're going to have to look at
the very core of our society and its culture. At best, the "causes"
you mention are merely symptoms of the true "problem". They exist and
maintain popularity only because it is there, and they are prevalent only
because of their popularity. They're actually under much greater influence from
the people than the people are from them, which is an often overlooked fact.
That's the nature of media after all.
Even the parenting issue is at least as much symptom as cause. As any
psychologist will tell you, parents (and family), while important, are far from
the only major factor in one's development. Children learn from society as a
whole, and even the best parents are hard-pressed to beat out other social
factors, and are in fact themselves vulnerable to such influences.
So, in the end, if you want to stop things like this, it means you're fighting
to change the very nature of our current society. Oh, you can possibly manage to
exert some influence with enough help, but it's a long, hard road, and I
wouldn't bet on your success. So I'll say again: good luck with that.
You need to look at what I read before you start making assumptions. Never did I
say that backyard wrestling needs to be dealt with. I just used it as an example
of violence.
And as for my fire example. Violence in society is nowhere near a campfire or
cooking fire. If that were so, the world would be a much safer place. So what
you're saying is that the level of violence in the world is nothing more than a
small controlled campfire that can be put out at any moment?
How can you say that the media isn't a cause of violence at home? When these
kids are interviewed, they say that they saw it on TV or they played it on a
game. Just because you don't have a problem with it does not mean that what I
say is false.
You're telling me a lot of things that I already know. Such as to stop violence
I would be attempting to change the very nature of humans and society although
it was you that said it was not human nature to be violent. I am fully aware of
that and I don't need you to tell me as though I jumped into something that I
know nothing about. I started this thread to find people who would be willing to
help, not people who will continuously go against my motives and put me down,
wishing me luck as though I WILL fail. The only thing you've done, friend, is
make the conversation longer than it needs to be, stray from the original topic,
and overal not help in any way.
I don't need your luck. Things like this are of a great stature and overwhelm
society which is why people like you choose not to do anything about them.
Violence as you say is society's nature and it would go against it to change
society itself. Just because a problem is difficult does not mean it's
unsolvable. I know I can't do this on my own, which is why I asked for help
here. You've not given me any help, just critizism. And it would do me and
anyone else who is interested in making the world better if you keep your
critizisms to yourself. If you want to help, I would accept it, but if all
you're going to do so tell me how big the problem is, then I have nothing else
to say to you except for one thing: You still have not told me the ultimate
source of the problem.
merged: 11-12-2007 ~ 05:03am
Quote by TheFleaJust to throw my two
cents into this, if your gona blame TV, movies, and games for violence in our
society. Well I guess you can kiss anime like Deathnote, Ikkitousen, Ergo Proxy
and the like, which are all really good anime, good bye. And as for video games,
well did you know that when GTA3 came out violence in America dropped by
7%?
Well friend, you really can't get rid of those shows because they are not a
cause, they are an influence. They don't make people do bad things, they just
give them the ideas. I'm not blaming them for anything, I'm just saying that
some people aren't mature enough to keep what they see on the TV screen. And did
you know that since 2001 violence has risen in America? Also FYI I was talking
about the world, not just America.
It can't really be helped now at this stage.
But what I can say is that the rootS of the problem must be destroyed (I
capitalized the "s" on purpose). Unfortunately, the problem cannot be
really solved completely. The best that we can hope for is minimize it. :P As
for the roots, these, IMO, are child-raising, environment, genetics (probably),
and psychology. At least, these are what I can think of for now.
Looking at violence itself, I think it's innate in us...waiting to be released
or triggered (Did I spell this correctly? :P)
IMHO, this all just boils down to parenting and guidance. If the kid gets the
proper guidance, is raised with and infused with the right morals and taught
strength of character at a young age, then i'd say that kid would be one less
threat.
what a child learns today, he will use in the future. what he sees from his
parents he will copy and live that way when he grows up.
kids don't come with a manual and many parents are just clueless about how to
raise a kid. even with lots of love but not enough guidance, a kid could be
easily influenced or provoked and turn to violence
as for tv, parents these days just plop children down in front of the tv coz
they just don't have time. they do what they have to do and let the boob tube do
the babysitting (and brainwashing). i think tv time should be lessened and if
ever kids are allowed to watch, there be a parent or guardian to guide him and
explain things to him. there are a lot more things that kids could do other than
watch tv. parents are just guilty of taking the easy way out, using a glowing
talking box to babysit their kids.
to end, i say tv has the most influence in this as it is the most easily
accessible. it put the ideas in the kids head. what would help solve it? good
parenting and proper guidance. train them young, and they will grow up to be
responsible and good citizens. let the tv train them and they may, at some point
in their life, be the next bomber or shooter. he will not know how to handle
stress and emotions as tv doesn't give children any of that. only parents
can.
Okay, I will try to respond here as best as I can. You pointed to rising
violence. You stated backyard wrestling as a primary example. I responded
focusing on this as a primary example. If there's some misperceptions there, I
apologize.
Second, I take offense to the insinuation that people who don't take up your
cause too lazy or frightened to deal with the violence problem. I mentioned the
scope because its something YOU need to make certain you factor in your
activities. I made the note about luck because that's going to be a HUGE factor
in the success of anything you do. What you want is no simple task. Personally,
I went and dug up the relevant information, evaluated it, and concluded that it
was another instance of overhype and media scaremongering, and that there is not
a serious issue that needs addressing. If I did, I would be right up there with
you, and probably doing more.
I also gave you help. If you didn't see it, I'm sorry. I will instead be blunt:
before you can address a problem, you must understand it - the more completely
the better. This includes looking at alternative viewpoints, recognizing any
flaws in your own thinking, and accepting that you might not be completely
right, and might not be able to do anything. You must be properly prepared
before diving into any major issue. As for clouding the issue, it seems you
yourself are doing that, and you need to step back a little and look at what
you've been saying. You seemed to first be talking about domestic violence, then
moved to recreational violence as if it were simply a part of the former, then
all the violence in the world, all without considering that each has its own
separate nature, causes, and effects. So, lets break it down:
I started with the backyard wrestling example. This is recreational violence. It
isn't really a problem. There's nothing wrong with it, and it is, at worst,
indicative of the nature of society, which you may or may not want to change.
You might claim some influence from media on this, but I maintain that the
desire for such activities is what creates the media market in the first place,
and most of what happens on the media is actually copied from what someone else
has already done at home. I'll continue by pointing out that the media itself
can serve as an outlet, reducing overt acts. This is a popular viewpoint in many
countries with lower violence, such as Japan.
For domestic violence, it's not really up that much, and not just the frequency
and nature of incidents, but any changes in such are socio-cultural or based on
environmental factors, and can't be blamed on media like games and television,
which is itself influenced by them much more so than the reverse. Even your
vague example of kids regularly claiming they saw it on TV or in a video game is
in fact trying to cloud the issue by selecting a scapegoat. Just because a kid
says such a thing doesn't make it true by any stretch of the imagination. In
most of these cases, the kid would have probably done the same thing, or at
least something similar, even without the supposed stimulus. They may have
copied something they saw for the actual action, but that doesn't mean they
wouldn't have done it otherwise, and they're more likely just choosing something
similar to what they did as an excuse to try and avert blame to minimize
consequences. That's something kids do, naturally.
But, in the end, most of the incidents I've seen had no such excuse, or at least
if they gave one it was clearly just reaching. It's just that the TV and
videogame violence is an extremely popular issue, so it gets disproportional
coverage, to the extent that kids can even be pressured into making such claims,
regardless of credibility, and incidents with such claims get more coverage than
those without. And most of the serious violence that is committed by kids is in
fact part of other issues such as ethnic conflict and violent crime, which have
different causes and have even LESS reaction to these media influences.
Changing this means changing perceptions of parenting, child development, and
the nature of the news media. Simply regulating violent games and TV will have
little impact.
Now, for the overall world violence. This doesn't really fit in with the rest of
your argument, and if this is your focus, you should drop the other stuff. If
not, don't even mention it, since this is something else entirely. But, if we're
talking about that, we're talking about things like ethnic conflict and violent
crime, which are where the REAL nasty stuff is. This IS on the rise, and is the
only type where a solid singular source can be identified, and since you wanted
the root of the issue here, I'll give it:
Rising population.
Yup, that's the true root of the issue. The ultimate source. Almost all ethnic
conflict has its roots in competition for living space and/or resources, which
are becoming increasingly scarce, and the rising populations of many countries,
which are having increasing difficulty supporting those populations, is the key
factor. Many of these conflicts are actually centuries old, that just have
seething hatreds that are simply flaring up again because of the current
population pressures. Almost all of the world's current ethnic conflicts can be
traced to this. Even the violence involving minorities in the US has its roots
here. Basic violent crime is also at its highest in places with high population
density. However, it's important to understand that there doesn't have to be
real crowding out. Just the perception that such things are occuring will drive
people to violent frenzy. This also isn't just things like land and water, but
jobs and political power as well.
There are also secondary issues, such as drugs. This one has socio-cultural
ties, and is most related to peer pressure, natural desire for experimentation,
and the rebellious nature of teenagers. Only a portion of these people get that
far, but a great deal of violent crime is related to the need to acquire money
for drugs, as people with such needs are far more desparate and thus predisposed
toward violence. Major contributing factors include the other big ones: lower
income and overcrowding, so you'll see much more of this in cities, particularly
ones like the one where I live.
The other related issue is poverty and inequality. People who are not so well
off look to find scapegoats to blame for their unhappiness, and often choose
ones who appear better off than themselves, leading toward hatred and violence
on both sides.
Ethnic conflict is pretty much something that just has to be let be for the most
part. Most of these conflicts are past the point of no return, and neither side
will appreciate intervention, and the costs of dealing with such things by force
are astronomical. This is a minor reason for lack of news coverage for most
ethnic conflicts.
Violent crime that's not related to ethnic conflict is best fought with
improving living conditions, and drugs require education beyond all else.
Poverty and inequality are a catch 22 though, as trying to alleviate them
requires taking from those who are better off to give to those who are less well
off, and can result in a form of the population conflict.
Quote by MontyJGOkay, I will try to
respond here as best as I can. You pointed to rising violence. You stated
backyard wrestling as a primary example. I responded focusing on this as a
primary example. If there's some misperceptions there, I apologize.
Second, I take offense to the insinuation that people who don't take up your
cause too lazy or frightened to deal with the violence problem. I mentioned the
scope because its something YOU need to make certain you factor in your
activities. I made the note about luck because that's going to be a HUGE factor
in the success of anything you do. What you want is no simple task. Personally,
I went and dug up the relevant information, evaluated it, and concluded that it
was another instance of overhype and media scaremongering, and that there is not
a serious issue that needs addressing. If I did, I would be right up there with
you, and probably doing more.
I also gave you help. If you didn't see it, I'm sorry. I will instead be blunt:
before you can address a problem, you must understand it - the more completely
the better. This includes looking at alternative viewpoints, recognizing any
flaws in your own thinking, and accepting that you might not be completely
right, and might not be able to do anything. You must be properly prepared
before diving into any major issue. As for clouding the issue, it seems you
yourself are doing that, and you need to step back a little and look at what
you've been saying. You seemed to first be talking about domestic violence, then
moved to recreational violence as if it were simply a part of the former, then
all the violence in the world, all without considering that each has its own
separate nature, causes, and effects. So, lets break it down:
I started with the backyard wrestling example. This is recreational violence. It
isn't really a problem. There's nothing wrong with it, and it is, at worst,
indicative of the nature of society, which you may or may not want to change.
You might claim some influence from media on this, but I maintain that the
desire for such activities is what creates the media market in the first place,
and most of what happens on the media is actually copied from what someone else
has already done at home. I'll continue by pointing out that the media itself
can serve as an outlet, reducing overt acts. This is a popular viewpoint in many
countries with lower violence, such as Japan.
For domestic violence, it's not really up that much, and not just the frequency
and nature of incidents, but any changes in such are socio-cultural or based on
environmental factors, and can't be blamed on media like games and television,
which is itself influenced by them much more so than the reverse. Even your
vague example of kids regularly claiming they saw it on TV or in a video game is
in fact trying to cloud the issue by selecting a scapegoat. Just because a kid
says such a thing doesn't make it true by any stretch of the imagination. In
most of these cases, the kid would have probably done the same thing, or at
least something similar, even without the supposed stimulus. They may have
copied something they saw for the actual action, but that doesn't mean they
wouldn't have done it otherwise, and they're more likely just choosing something
similar to what they did as an excuse to try and avert blame to minimize
consequences. That's something kids do, naturally.
But, in the end, most of the incidents I've seen had no such excuse, or at least
if they gave one it was clearly just reaching. It's just that the TV and
videogame violence is an extremely popular issue, so it gets disproportional
coverage, to the extent that kids can even be pressured into making such claims,
regardless of credibility, and incidents with such claims get more coverage than
those without. And most of the serious violence that is committed by kids is in
fact part of other issues such as ethnic conflict and violent crime, which have
different causes and have even LESS reaction to these media influences.
Changing this means changing perceptions of parenting, child development, and
the nature of the news media. Simply regulating violent games and TV will have
little impact.
Now, for the overall world violence. This doesn't really fit in with the rest of
your argument, and if this is your focus, you should drop the other stuff. If
not, don't even mention it, since this is something else entirely. But, if we're
talking about that, we're talking about things like ethnic conflict and violent
crime, which are where the REAL nasty stuff is. This IS on the rise, and is the
only type where a solid singular source can be identified, and since you wanted
the root of the issue here, I'll give it:
Rising population.
Yup, that's the true root of the issue. The ultimate source. Almost all ethnic
conflict has its roots in competition for living space and/or resources, which
are becoming increasingly scarce, and the rising populations of many countries,
which are having increasing difficulty supporting those populations, is the key
factor. Many of these conflicts are actually centuries old, that just have
seething hatreds that are simply flaring up again because of the current
population pressures. Almost all of the world's current ethnic conflicts can be
traced to this. Even the violence involving minorities in the US has its roots
here. Basic violent crime is also at its highest in places with high population
density. However, it's important to understand that there doesn't have to be
real crowding out. Just the perception that such things are occuring will drive
people to violent frenzy. This also isn't just things like land and water, but
jobs and political power as well.
There are also secondary issues, such as drugs. This one has socio-cultural
ties, and is most related to peer pressure, natural desire for experimentation,
and the rebellious nature of teenagers. Only a portion of these people get that
far, but a great deal of violent crime is related to the need to acquire money
for drugs, as people with such needs are far more desparate and thus predisposed
toward violence. Major contributing factors include the other big ones: lower
income and overcrowding, so you'll see much more of this in cities, particularly
ones like the one where I live.
The other related issue is poverty and inequality. People who are not so well
off look to find scapegoats to blame for their unhappiness, and often choose
ones who appear better off than themselves, leading toward hatred and violence
on both sides.
Ethnic conflict is pretty much something that just has to be let be for the most
part. Most of these conflicts are past the point of no return, and neither side
will appreciate intervention, and the costs of dealing with such things by force
are astronomical. This is a minor reason for lack of news coverage for most
ethnic conflicts.
Violent crime that's not related to ethnic conflict is best fought with
improving living conditions, and drugs require education beyond all else.
Poverty and inequality are a catch 22 though, as trying to alleviate them
requires taking from those who are better off to give to those who are less well
off, and can result in a form of the population
conflict.
Well friend, the last thing I have to tell you is that I speak of violence as a
whole, not any one type. And all of violence itself does not have just one
source. And the purpose of this thread is to find ways to decrease the several
forms of violence around the world, not to compete on who knows the truest
reason. The reasons are not as important as the problem itself. It's as I said,
once the problems are fixed, we can figure out the causes and ensure that they
do not happen again. I believe that the world and its people have some good in
them. And that, friend, is all I have to say to you.
this is just my opinion and life experience. violence has always been one of
societies main questions since the very beginning. I believe if someone makes
fun or any other type of offence to you there is many ways to solve it, like
beat the offender up or shoot him. I find these solutions to work pretty well in
society and you get enjoyment out of it too, like killing two birds with one
stone. Our children solving their problems with violence is a wonderful thing,
since they should stand for themselves and solve matters with their own hands,
instead of relaying on others. If you don't like someone you kill him, than
everything is solved you won't have to see him anymore. If any of the members
above have questions i will happily answer it. this is just my opinion and my
ways in solving problems may not be the right solution, however solving
solutions by talking over it is also just an opinion as well. everyone is
entitled to their own opinon in this site as long as its not vague.
Quote by Couserseventhis is just my
opinion and life experience. violence has always been one of societies main
questions since the very beginning. I believe if someone makes fun or any other
type of offence to you there is many ways to solve it, like beat the offender up
or shoot him. I find these solutions to work pretty well in society and you get
enjoyment out of it too, like killing two birds with one stone. Our children
solving their problems with violence is a wonderful thing, since they should
stand for themselves and solve matters with their own hands, instead of relaying
on others. If you don't like someone you kill him, than everything is solved you
won't have to see him anymore. If any of the members above have questions i will
happily answer it. this is just my opinion and my ways in solving problems may
not be the right solution, however solving solutions by talking over it is also
just an opinion as well. everyone is entitled to their own opinon in this site
as long as its not vague.
Well friend, I find your opinion to be the most immature and childish thing I've
ever heard. You think that if you kill someone you don't like your problems will
just magically dissapear? That's funny. I dare you to kill someone you don't
like and see what a peaceful life you live. What happens if your caught? You go
to jail where you will probably meet several dozens of people you don't like and
you can't kill them without starting feuds with others. The path that you choose
leads down a path of more and more killing. And what about the families of the
people you murder? Did you think of them? Or do you just not care? What if this
person has parents who love them to death and you take that person away because
you find murder to be the best solution for your problems?
Who is closest to you if anyone? What if someone killed that person? Would you
care? Would you just say "oh well, at least that other person feels
better." Do you have anyone who loves you? What if you made someone mad and
they decided to kill you? Would you care about the people who love you? Or do
you care about anyone?
I agree with Kage-Onitenshi, although, I often have the urge to kill annoying
people. :P Violence cannot always end problems. Like Courserseven said, there
ARE many ways to tackle and solve problems. And sure it's a wonderful thing if
children (and even adults) stand up for themselves. The problem here is their
capability to judge. Children lack a lot of experience and knowledge to properly
judge situations.
Quote by Kage-OnitenshiWell
friend, the last thing I have to tell you is that I speak of violence as a
whole, not any one type. And all of violence itself does not have just one
source. And the purpose of this thread is to find ways to decrease the several
forms of violence around the world, not to compete on who knows the truest
reason. The reasons are not as important as the problem itself. It's as I said,
once the problems are fixed, we can figure out the causes and ensure that they
do not happen again. I believe that the world and its people have some good in
them. And that, friend, is all I have to say to you.
You're free to disagree, but my teaching and experience has shown that in order
to find a proper, lasting solution to a problem, you must recognize the causes
and design the solution to attack those, rather than the symptoms they create.
Thus, recognizing the causes is the first and most important step to finding an
effective solution. This is among the most basic aspects of problem solving, and
is especially when you get into something of a behavioral nature such as
violence, you cannot effectively attack the problem without understanding
everything behind it.
Now, you can alleviate the problem
briefly with other methods, but that only serves to hold the symptoms in check
while you work on attacking the source. And the larger and more widespread the
issue, the less effective this tactic is. So with worldwide violence, it won't
get that far.
So, here is my best advice to you:
1) Break down the violence into categories, based on underlying causes, and work
on one or two at a time. Unless you somehow find a magical answer, there's no
way you can hit all violence at once.
2) Target the causes.
3) When you do try to alleviate violence, hit specific conflicts. The more
narrowly you concentrate your effort, the greater the effect will be.
4) Take a more open stance with your views and ideas. You seem very steadfast in
several areas where I would think that listening to others is a necessity.
Openness is the single greatest enemy of violence, so apply it to yourself
first.
And for the record, I personally try fight against ethnic conflicts, which I do
by increasing education and awareness of issues on all sides, and focusing on
such conflicts individually, as each is unique, making a universal solution
little more than a pipe dream. I'm actually probably as much as an aggressive
idealist as you, just taking a different approach and focusing on different
issues.
Again, look at it as you want, react as you want, and good luck. I will fight my
own battles as I see fit as well. Even time may not tell if one of us is more
right in our views and methods, and the only thing I can say for certain is that
with our differences, we're not going to get that far together.
It has come to my attention that this world and much of its youth is EXTREMELY violent. Like many of you on this website, I surf the web a lot, watch videos on Youtube, etc...and frankly some of the things I find disgust me. Today I was looking up backyard wrestling, you know just to see what kids are up to these days. What I found was the stupedist thing ever. I mean I know you've probably seen backyard wrestling at least once in your life. That can't be healthy. People slamming each other on the ground and into cars, hitting each other with light tubes...it's just...I can't even describe it. It's foolish. I mean I get that kids are looking for thrills, but people seriously get hurt doing that stuff.
They get the ideas from watching TV and playing violent video games. I will NEVER understand why teenagers play these games then get the urge to go outside and try them. I'm happy that the whole world isn't so influential. It's like all of these school shootings going on. The Columbine shooters made it popular, now it seems that every lonely kid with a few enemies thinks that the best way to solve their problems is to get all the guns they can, go to school, and start shooting people. And people think that they have to make gun laws stricter. I'm going to tell you something, that's not going to stop them from gettnig weapons. Drugs are illegal, but people still get them.
What these kids need is someone to talk to. I will say that it's not all their fault, they need someone to talk to. They have problems and they turn to their video games and movies for escape until they feel that there's nothing left to live for, so they go all out and start killing people. Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't it seem like that? Just recently a kid in Finland killed what six or seven people at his school? Then, just like every other coward before him, he kills himself to escape.
Maybe I'm being harsh, but this is a subject that needs to be addressed now. More and more teens are choosing the "I'm gonna kill those who look down upon me" rather than "Let me talk to them and find out what's going on." Some of these kids are being made fun of which makes them want to kill more, but wow, come on they're just words. They can be ignored, but something in their heads tells them to make them pay instead of walk away, those people aren't worth it.
I think violent video games and TV shows and movies greatly contribute as well as Marilyn Manson. I don't need to remind how how many violent games there are out there, but I know some people might get mad at me for accusing Manson like this. I will say that it's not his fault, none of it is and I can't recall a time when Manson told someone "If someone makes fun of you, kill them." It's just his attitude to only care for himself that inspires people to do this kind of thing. This also isn't meant to disscourage video games and shows. It's just some people aren't mature enough to watch or play these things and realize that IT IS VIRTUAL REALITY. I don't mean to offend anyone, but this has been on my mind a lot and I feel that if something isn't done soon, it could get A WHOLE LOT worse.
Please tell me what you think and what we can do to make this world a better and safer place.
The primary solution is called parenting and unfortunately too many so called parents fail miserably at it and they just want something else to blame instead of looking at how they screwed up. Not that its to surprising since most people are too dishonest to own up to their own screw ups. People are fat because of the fast food industry? Please...people get fat cause they eat to d@#$ much and don't practice self control (like everything else there are a few (very few) exceptions).
If parents would take the time to actually spend time with their kids and learn about their kids many of the really idiotic events would never occur (I say many because there is not really anything that can be called idiot proof). In addition parents would learn to recognize the more severe changes that occur when kids start down certain roads.
As for violence, well anyone that believes video games or movies are real need professional help anyway. For those select few that do recognize that fact but try to imitate them anyway, well heres hoping you don't die even though it would probably improve the gene pool.
Well I will agree that a lot of the time it is the parent's fault, but not always. There are good parents that try to raise their kids right and the kids just have too many mental problems to recognize the fact that they have loving parents. One of the Columbine shooters had a really close knit family(not assuming that he was happy) and that didn't stop him. It's not always the parent's fault.
I agree violence is a problem, but you are generalizing too much. I think the number of kids who play violent video games and reenact them is much, much smaller than you seem to think. I think you have it backwards in some ways too: it's more of a trend for TV shows and other violent media to be created by influence of what people have done, and not so much the other way around.
While it seems like that, it's normally not the whole story. There are also kids who do have people that want to help them and try, but some kids refuse the help. And then there are kids that seem perfectly normal until it's too late...
Though I don't particularly care for Marilyn Manson, I think it was a little much to drag him into this... But anyways, I agree that there are people who aren't mature enough to handle violent media, but with a lot of the research I've had to do for Psychology I've encountered very little correlations between the two things. I wouldn't say violent media is healthy, but I don't think it's the cause of this behavior either. It's better to look at the kid's social life at school and within the family.
Okay, so if we look into the kid's social life and family life, we would probably find the main causes of their violent behavior. But some of these kids come from good families and it's more so the social issues that drive them. If this is so, how, would you say, we deal with this? I mean it's easy to spot some of them, but it's like you said, some of them SEEM normal until it's too late. The reason I started this thread is not to judge these kids, but to help them. I want to know what we, as people, as humans should do to help these kids that are like this, even if they don't want our help, we've got to do something. My girlfriend's mother knew a woman who's son had plans of killing his mother and bombing the local high school and they found letters of how he wanted to kill his mother and bomb the school.
not to step on any toes or anything but most of that can be blamed on the parent/guardian type thing, I mean come on if these "adults" would take more interest and not snoop (that makes enemies) but simply sit and talk, listen and learn then the kids won't be so proned to such violence at such a young age, because regardless if the person is violent they will become violent there is no way to halt this but slowing it down could be a start...I mean from what I've read in the news walmart can only do so much the "adults" need to help as well
I totally agree with you, the parents should help and "snooping" as you put it is a big problem. I've noticed that a lot of the time parents go behind their kids back and spy on them rather than sitting them down and having a mature dissucsion out the problem.
violence comes from many things.. i mean like turning what they see into what they do....
a lot of it comes from tv basically =/... tv... not video games lol... to be honest..... i mean... i know a buncha people that play counter strike.. i don't see them lugging around a gun or talking about shooting people ...
its just the person themselves and moreso what they dealt with growing in other words.... parents.. BUT not only them... environment and peer pressure... they could be dragged into the violence ya know =/
i mean... once someone hears " someone shot somebody because he played a game " that really irritates me cause then the older people start to hate games and try to ban it.... like thats 1 out of a million.. you should be worrying about other stuff... i mean hell the people that ban games don't even play the games... saying how they don't need to play it.. i still remember a while back a few years ago when some company joined with mothers against drugs was like making a list of most violent games..... dood.. the second most violent game is like..... a snow boarding game.. wtf?! @_@............... lol goes to show they don't even look into what they say and just label anything they like..... environment... + parents.... + ... personal experiences and traumas... basically create violence.... sure video games too but like lol honestly... its like... watching gun grave and saying i wanna shoot people rofl
You're right, a lot of people don't do what they see, if they did, then the whole would would have guns. But games do have a lot to do with it. They enjoy killing with the controller and some kids do what they do in video games. I'm not saying that video games are the only source of violence, but it's just as at fault as anything else. And it's also like I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with games, I'm all for them, but some kids aren't mature enough to keep the violence on the TV screen. Video games inspire a lot of violence whether you realize it or not. You and the people you know are obviously mature enough to know that you can kill whoever and whatever you want in the game, and in real life thoese people won't come back, you can get hurt, and there are no extra lives.
are you kidding me? pick a history book or read the bible. kids doing stupid, violent stuff is nothing.
merged: 11-11-2007 ~ 11:37am
Humans are animals. we're still operating on the reptilian brain. Fight or flight. Kill or be killed. we're violent by nature, its just that some are more so than the others.
It doesn't matter what the history books say and no one can proove that the bible is a true story. It is not true that humans are violent by nature but rather they succum to their basic instincts in what they 'beileve to be the right thing'. It just so happens that some people's views on the right things are not the same as others. What is right to someone may not be right to another, but everyone seems to be forgetting the point of this post in the first place. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO? We know the problems. Peolple are violent, no matter what the cause, it's all over the world, but what I am asking of anyone who cares to read this post is that they be mature enough to help think of a solution for the violence. That would be better than bickering about the sources.
merged: 11-11-2007 ~ 12:31pm
And besides, I'm not talking about incodents that too place years ago, I'm talking about the recent problems. No one now can prevent what has happened in the past. And even if the Bible is true, it still stands that it's in the past and is not a problem now.
For now, the only thing I'm going to be doing is keeping a big stick handy (not the nicest neighborhood here). But even I don't see quite that much violence when I think about it.
If you're asking what we, as a society, can do, I'm afraid you might not looking at things in the right perspective. The truth is, the violence issue is as much, if not more, an issue of perception rather than of the actual violence.
Believe it or not, we're in one of the less violent societies in history, and certainly among the least violent in the world today. Because of that, we pay far greater attention to each incident, blowing things out of proportion and thus never realizing this fact. The truth is that most violence, even in our society, is of a nature that is, at best, marginally influenced by things like televison, music, and games. The destructive, damaging violence, is most often linked to criminal and gang activity, which was no different, in either nature or frequency, before the advent of these things. And more importantly, even when there are changes, these things become scapegoats that cloud the real reasons, which are much simpler, and much more difficult to deal with.
Personally, I don't particularly mind violence unless it causes notable harm. People have been coming home with black eyes and bruises for as long as there have been homes to come to and people to come. Take this backyard wrestling for example. Does it result in serious injury? Are there unwilling participants? Is there any serious property damage? Usually, the answer to all of these is no. What this means is that these kids are being violent in a less destructive manner, which leaves them less likely do display destructive violence. Oh, it's not as nice as many sports would be, or good, controlled martial arts, but it satisfies their need for violence without causing significant backlash.
Oh, there are certainly issues in our society that need working, but keep in mind that fixing our skewed perceptions, which lead to horrible overreactions and misdirected criticism and effort, is among the top issues on that list, and it's far more important than the violence issue.
Whether or not perseption is an issue, violence still does exist and it still, in my opinion needs to be dealt with. An I never once believed that the country I live in is on the high charts when there are much more violent people over seas. And I don't speak of the nation as violence, just those certain individuals.
What you are saying is that violence is natural for human beings. Let me ask you this. Where does maturity and state of mind come in the natural scale? What you're saying is that the things responsible for influencing violence are not the real problem. You have failed to state what the true problem is.
I respect the fact that you don't care much for violence so long as it doesn't present a problem large enough to gain world-wide attention. So I guess the real question for you is whether you supoprt human nature or maturity and good will, which this country seems to stress so much when dealing with others. I'm not trying to stop these kids from wrestling, I'm just saying that I'm against it. God forbide if I would try to stop them, they might end up being the next Eric and Dylan.
And as for fixing perceptions that can come once the damage has stopped. When a fire starts, you can't sit around and preceve how the fire started. The longer it is left untended to, the more it will spread. Once the fire is stopped, then you can think about it as much as you want and thus with the fire gone, figure out a way to stop it from happening agian.
I do have a problem with violent kids doing things like backyeard wrestling, but I will be honest and say that it's better than them doing it on innocent people. I would never interfear with them so long as they are all willing to do what they do with others who want to do it. My main concern is innocent people being dragged into someone's issues for whateve reason.
I would not go so far as to say that violence is a natural aspect of human nature that is encompassed and expressed by everyone. However, I would most certainly say that violence is not UNnatural. You look at this backyard wrestling and frown, indicating that it's an issue that needs to be dealt with. But I see a continuation of an ancient tradition that has endured throughout human history. Thus, I have to ask, how many young boys NEVER get involved in fights, NEVER do a bit of roughhousing, NEVER get involved in such violent acts at least once in awhile? Heck, even I, one of the most nonviolent people out there, have done such activities when I was younger. Maybe not daily, or even weekly, but certainly often enough to that I have to admit it. It may be different from the past due to cultural changes, but we tend to see a much greater problem than there is. That is more in tune with true human nature than the whole violence thing.
You used a nice fire analogy, but I'll give you an addition to that: do you go ballistic when you see a campfire? Do you call the fire department everytime a bonfire is set? Do you frantically try and put out a cooking fire? You only put serious effort into stopping a fire that is out of control, and if you treat one that's under control the same way, all you do is piss off the ones who set and maintained it, causing more harm than good.
I'll also emphasize that there is still no clear evidence that violence in the media is the cause of violence at home. You're free to believe it, and you're free to look for ways to change it (good luck, you'll need it more than I do). However, they're free to do it, and I'm free to accept it, and others are free to even support it. Again, I don't mind as long as its for fun. It's only when things get serious that I see a problem. But that's just me, and I recognize that fact.
As for changing things, if you want to do that, you're going to have to look at the very core of our society and its culture. At best, the "causes" you mention are merely symptoms of the true "problem". They exist and maintain popularity only because it is there, and they are prevalent only because of their popularity. They're actually under much greater influence from the people than the people are from them, which is an often overlooked fact. That's the nature of media after all.
Even the parenting issue is at least as much symptom as cause. As any psychologist will tell you, parents (and family), while important, are far from the only major factor in one's development. Children learn from society as a whole, and even the best parents are hard-pressed to beat out other social factors, and are in fact themselves vulnerable to such influences.
So, in the end, if you want to stop things like this, it means you're fighting to change the very nature of our current society. Oh, you can possibly manage to exert some influence with enough help, but it's a long, hard road, and I wouldn't bet on your success. So I'll say again: good luck with that.
Just to throw my two cents into this, if your gona blame TV, movies, and games for violence in our society. Well I guess you can kiss anime like Deathnote, Ikkitousen, Ergo Proxy and the like, which are all really good anime, good bye. And as for video games, well did you know that when GTA3 came out violence in America dropped by 7%?
You need to look at what I read before you start making assumptions. Never did I say that backyard wrestling needs to be dealt with. I just used it as an example of violence.
And as for my fire example. Violence in society is nowhere near a campfire or cooking fire. If that were so, the world would be a much safer place. So what you're saying is that the level of violence in the world is nothing more than a small controlled campfire that can be put out at any moment?
How can you say that the media isn't a cause of violence at home? When these kids are interviewed, they say that they saw it on TV or they played it on a game. Just because you don't have a problem with it does not mean that what I say is false.
You're telling me a lot of things that I already know. Such as to stop violence I would be attempting to change the very nature of humans and society although it was you that said it was not human nature to be violent. I am fully aware of that and I don't need you to tell me as though I jumped into something that I know nothing about. I started this thread to find people who would be willing to help, not people who will continuously go against my motives and put me down, wishing me luck as though I WILL fail. The only thing you've done, friend, is make the conversation longer than it needs to be, stray from the original topic, and overal not help in any way.
I don't need your luck. Things like this are of a great stature and overwhelm society which is why people like you choose not to do anything about them. Violence as you say is society's nature and it would go against it to change society itself. Just because a problem is difficult does not mean it's unsolvable. I know I can't do this on my own, which is why I asked for help here. You've not given me any help, just critizism. And it would do me and anyone else who is interested in making the world better if you keep your critizisms to yourself. If you want to help, I would accept it, but if all you're going to do so tell me how big the problem is, then I have nothing else to say to you except for one thing: You still have not told me the ultimate source of the problem.
merged: 11-12-2007 ~ 05:03am
Well friend, you really can't get rid of those shows because they are not a cause, they are an influence. They don't make people do bad things, they just give them the ideas. I'm not blaming them for anything, I'm just saying that some people aren't mature enough to keep what they see on the TV screen. And did you know that since 2001 violence has risen in America? Also FYI I was talking about the world, not just America.
It can't really be helped now at this stage.
But what I can say is that the rootS of the problem must be destroyed (I capitalized the "s" on purpose). Unfortunately, the problem cannot be really solved completely. The best that we can hope for is minimize it. :P As for the roots, these, IMO, are child-raising, environment, genetics (probably), and psychology. At least, these are what I can think of for now.
Looking at violence itself, I think it's innate in us...waiting to be released or triggered (Did I spell this correctly? :P)
IMHO, this all just boils down to parenting and guidance. If the kid gets the proper guidance, is raised with and infused with the right morals and taught strength of character at a young age, then i'd say that kid would be one less threat.
what a child learns today, he will use in the future. what he sees from his parents he will copy and live that way when he grows up.
kids don't come with a manual and many parents are just clueless about how to raise a kid. even with lots of love but not enough guidance, a kid could be easily influenced or provoked and turn to violence
as for tv, parents these days just plop children down in front of the tv coz they just don't have time. they do what they have to do and let the boob tube do the babysitting (and brainwashing). i think tv time should be lessened and if ever kids are allowed to watch, there be a parent or guardian to guide him and explain things to him. there are a lot more things that kids could do other than watch tv. parents are just guilty of taking the easy way out, using a glowing talking box to babysit their kids.
to end, i say tv has the most influence in this as it is the most easily accessible. it put the ideas in the kids head. what would help solve it? good parenting and proper guidance. train them young, and they will grow up to be responsible and good citizens. let the tv train them and they may, at some point in their life, be the next bomber or shooter. he will not know how to handle stress and emotions as tv doesn't give children any of that. only parents can.
Okay, I will try to respond here as best as I can. You pointed to rising violence. You stated backyard wrestling as a primary example. I responded focusing on this as a primary example. If there's some misperceptions there, I apologize.
Second, I take offense to the insinuation that people who don't take up your cause too lazy or frightened to deal with the violence problem. I mentioned the scope because its something YOU need to make certain you factor in your activities. I made the note about luck because that's going to be a HUGE factor in the success of anything you do. What you want is no simple task. Personally, I went and dug up the relevant information, evaluated it, and concluded that it was another instance of overhype and media scaremongering, and that there is not a serious issue that needs addressing. If I did, I would be right up there with you, and probably doing more.
I also gave you help. If you didn't see it, I'm sorry. I will instead be blunt: before you can address a problem, you must understand it - the more completely the better. This includes looking at alternative viewpoints, recognizing any flaws in your own thinking, and accepting that you might not be completely right, and might not be able to do anything. You must be properly prepared before diving into any major issue. As for clouding the issue, it seems you yourself are doing that, and you need to step back a little and look at what you've been saying. You seemed to first be talking about domestic violence, then moved to recreational violence as if it were simply a part of the former, then all the violence in the world, all without considering that each has its own separate nature, causes, and effects. So, lets break it down:
I started with the backyard wrestling example. This is recreational violence. It isn't really a problem. There's nothing wrong with it, and it is, at worst, indicative of the nature of society, which you may or may not want to change. You might claim some influence from media on this, but I maintain that the desire for such activities is what creates the media market in the first place, and most of what happens on the media is actually copied from what someone else has already done at home. I'll continue by pointing out that the media itself can serve as an outlet, reducing overt acts. This is a popular viewpoint in many countries with lower violence, such as Japan.
For domestic violence, it's not really up that much, and not just the frequency and nature of incidents, but any changes in such are socio-cultural or based on environmental factors, and can't be blamed on media like games and television, which is itself influenced by them much more so than the reverse. Even your vague example of kids regularly claiming they saw it on TV or in a video game is in fact trying to cloud the issue by selecting a scapegoat. Just because a kid says such a thing doesn't make it true by any stretch of the imagination. In most of these cases, the kid would have probably done the same thing, or at least something similar, even without the supposed stimulus. They may have copied something they saw for the actual action, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have done it otherwise, and they're more likely just choosing something similar to what they did as an excuse to try and avert blame to minimize consequences. That's something kids do, naturally.
But, in the end, most of the incidents I've seen had no such excuse, or at least if they gave one it was clearly just reaching. It's just that the TV and videogame violence is an extremely popular issue, so it gets disproportional coverage, to the extent that kids can even be pressured into making such claims, regardless of credibility, and incidents with such claims get more coverage than those without. And most of the serious violence that is committed by kids is in fact part of other issues such as ethnic conflict and violent crime, which have different causes and have even LESS reaction to these media influences.
Changing this means changing perceptions of parenting, child development, and the nature of the news media. Simply regulating violent games and TV will have little impact.
Now, for the overall world violence. This doesn't really fit in with the rest of your argument, and if this is your focus, you should drop the other stuff. If not, don't even mention it, since this is something else entirely. But, if we're talking about that, we're talking about things like ethnic conflict and violent crime, which are where the REAL nasty stuff is. This IS on the rise, and is the only type where a solid singular source can be identified, and since you wanted the root of the issue here, I'll give it:
Rising population.
Yup, that's the true root of the issue. The ultimate source. Almost all ethnic conflict has its roots in competition for living space and/or resources, which are becoming increasingly scarce, and the rising populations of many countries, which are having increasing difficulty supporting those populations, is the key factor. Many of these conflicts are actually centuries old, that just have seething hatreds that are simply flaring up again because of the current population pressures. Almost all of the world's current ethnic conflicts can be traced to this. Even the violence involving minorities in the US has its roots here. Basic violent crime is also at its highest in places with high population density. However, it's important to understand that there doesn't have to be real crowding out. Just the perception that such things are occuring will drive people to violent frenzy. This also isn't just things like land and water, but jobs and political power as well.
There are also secondary issues, such as drugs. This one has socio-cultural ties, and is most related to peer pressure, natural desire for experimentation, and the rebellious nature of teenagers. Only a portion of these people get that far, but a great deal of violent crime is related to the need to acquire money for drugs, as people with such needs are far more desparate and thus predisposed toward violence. Major contributing factors include the other big ones: lower income and overcrowding, so you'll see much more of this in cities, particularly ones like the one where I live.
The other related issue is poverty and inequality. People who are not so well off look to find scapegoats to blame for their unhappiness, and often choose ones who appear better off than themselves, leading toward hatred and violence on both sides.
Ethnic conflict is pretty much something that just has to be let be for the most part. Most of these conflicts are past the point of no return, and neither side will appreciate intervention, and the costs of dealing with such things by force are astronomical. This is a minor reason for lack of news coverage for most ethnic conflicts.
Violent crime that's not related to ethnic conflict is best fought with improving living conditions, and drugs require education beyond all else. Poverty and inequality are a catch 22 though, as trying to alleviate them requires taking from those who are better off to give to those who are less well off, and can result in a form of the population conflict.
Well friend, the last thing I have to tell you is that I speak of violence as a whole, not any one type. And all of violence itself does not have just one source. And the purpose of this thread is to find ways to decrease the several forms of violence around the world, not to compete on who knows the truest reason. The reasons are not as important as the problem itself. It's as I said, once the problems are fixed, we can figure out the causes and ensure that they do not happen again. I believe that the world and its people have some good in them. And that, friend, is all I have to say to you.
this is just my opinion and life experience. violence has always been one of societies main questions since the very beginning. I believe if someone makes fun or any other type of offence to you there is many ways to solve it, like beat the offender up or shoot him. I find these solutions to work pretty well in society and you get enjoyment out of it too, like killing two birds with one stone. Our children solving their problems with violence is a wonderful thing, since they should stand for themselves and solve matters with their own hands, instead of relaying on others. If you don't like someone you kill him, than everything is solved you won't have to see him anymore. If any of the members above have questions i will happily answer it. this is just my opinion and my ways in solving problems may not be the right solution, however solving solutions by talking over it is also just an opinion as well. everyone is entitled to their own opinon in this site as long as its not vague.
Well friend, I find your opinion to be the most immature and childish thing I've ever heard. You think that if you kill someone you don't like your problems will just magically dissapear? That's funny. I dare you to kill someone you don't like and see what a peaceful life you live. What happens if your caught? You go to jail where you will probably meet several dozens of people you don't like and you can't kill them without starting feuds with others. The path that you choose leads down a path of more and more killing. And what about the families of the people you murder? Did you think of them? Or do you just not care? What if this person has parents who love them to death and you take that person away because you find murder to be the best solution for your problems?
Who is closest to you if anyone? What if someone killed that person? Would you care? Would you just say "oh well, at least that other person feels better." Do you have anyone who loves you? What if you made someone mad and they decided to kill you? Would you care about the people who love you? Or do you care about anyone?
I agree with Kage-Onitenshi, although, I often have the urge to kill annoying people. :P Violence cannot always end problems. Like Courserseven said, there ARE many ways to tackle and solve problems. And sure it's a wonderful thing if children (and even adults) stand up for themselves. The problem here is their capability to judge. Children lack a lot of experience and knowledge to properly judge situations.
You're free to disagree, but my teaching and experience has shown that in order to find a proper, lasting solution to a problem, you must recognize the causes and design the solution to attack those, rather than the symptoms they create. Thus, recognizing the causes is the first and most important step to finding an effective solution. This is among the most basic aspects of problem solving, and is especially when you get into something of a behavioral nature such as violence, you cannot effectively attack the problem without understanding everything behind it.
Now, you can alleviate the problem briefly with other methods, but that only serves to hold the symptoms in check while you work on attacking the source. And the larger and more widespread the issue, the less effective this tactic is. So with worldwide violence, it won't get that far.
So, here is my best advice to you:
1) Break down the violence into categories, based on underlying causes, and work on one or two at a time. Unless you somehow find a magical answer, there's no way you can hit all violence at once.
2) Target the causes.
3) When you do try to alleviate violence, hit specific conflicts. The more narrowly you concentrate your effort, the greater the effect will be.
4) Take a more open stance with your views and ideas. You seem very steadfast in several areas where I would think that listening to others is a necessity. Openness is the single greatest enemy of violence, so apply it to yourself first.
And for the record, I personally try fight against ethnic conflicts, which I do by increasing education and awareness of issues on all sides, and focusing on such conflicts individually, as each is unique, making a universal solution little more than a pipe dream. I'm actually probably as much as an aggressive idealist as you, just taking a different approach and focusing on different issues.
Again, look at it as you want, react as you want, and good luck. I will fight my own battles as I see fit as well. Even time may not tell if one of us is more right in our views and methods, and the only thing I can say for certain is that with our differences, we're not going to get that far together.