Protests over Beijing's Olympic Torch...
City Hall
Should people protest over Beijing's Olympic Torch?
Protests over Beijing's Olympic Torch...
Should people protest over Beijing's Olympic Torch?
- Yes
- 7 votes
- No
- 19 votes
- Not Sure
- 2 votes
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Tomorrow afternoon, the Olympic Torch will be carried through San Francisco. But all hell is breaking loose today. There are thousands of people protesting the torch and the Olympics that will be held in Beijing in August. The protests in San Francisco will follow violent protests in London and especially in Paris, where the torch couldn't even be carried along is entire planned route before the flame was temporarily put out after one protester tried to use a fire extinguisher. On Sunday, the upcoming torch relay in San Francisco made international headlines when a group of protesters scaled the Golden Gate Bridge and hung banners from the bridge's suspension cables reading "One World; One Dream: Free Tibet" and "Free Tibet 08". As a result, security on the Golden Gate Bridge is very tight and has raised concerns about security on the bridge. Archbishop Desmond Tutu and famed Buddhist actor Richard Gere are participating in the protests in San Francisco. There are now talks about canceling the rest of the Olympic Torch's world tour and Presidential Candidate Hillary Clinton has called for President Bush to Boycott the games in Beijing because of China's human rights record. I have two problems with this fiasco over the torch. 1)Americans have no right to complain about China's human rights record or boycotting the games when America's human rights record in the last eight years are as bad as China's, if not worse and you can bet if the United States was hosting the Olympics, even in a very anti-Bush city like San Francisco, people in other countries would be boycotting the Olympics and protesting any torch runs. And 2) Why do people keep bringing politics into the Olympics? The Olympics are a sporting event and should be about global unity and athletes coming together to compete in front the eyes of the world.
Here's the story about the Golden Gate Bridge:
http://cbs5.com/local/golden.gate.bridge.2.693783.html
I've been seeing a lot of this in not only general news, but sporting news as well. It certainly doesn't bode well for the upcoming games. I agree with you in the sense of "why now", but at the same time it's obvious as to the answer. The carrying of the torch is a symbol that is viewed by the world as an whole, and with that comes that mass of attention. Whether it's narcissism of a group just wanting attention, or a group legitmately calling for change, a worldwide audience is perfect for either goal.
As for your comment on America's human rights and China's human rights, I'm not sure exactly how you make the connections. I don't know enough about world politics in general to disprove you, but at the same time I know things about China that just rub me the wrong way. By that, I generally have a distaste for them in general. Massive intellectual censorship, "mysterious" deaths linked to those who have said things poorly of China or represented them improperly etc.
In general I enjoy the Olympics. I am worried that these games may prove not worth watching in exactly what you've said. It won't be a celebration of sport and country pride, but instead of politics and violence.
Those people should get a life and not protest for stupid stuff. China owns Tibet by right of conquest. If you can get Tibet free then you should do it otherwise shut up. What moron let china have the Olympics? Shouldn't they have know it would cause this much trouble?
Maybe countries should ship guns to Tibet and let them deal with their own problems.
They have all the right in the world to protest about, Tibet, about Darfur, about human rights.
What I disagree with is the attempt of some people to snuff the flame.
If they do, good luck getting China to negotiate after being shamed on the international stage.
Pressure - constant, consistent and nonviolent - makes waves, as evidenced by China's posture on Darfur. Going overboard, however, risks shaming not only China's leaders, but the Chinese in general.
Plus, China has its media to fuel the nationalism of Chinese - the media had a potent effect when NATO accidentally bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999.
The problem is, it's not "non-violent". I just watched a you-tube video where some dude was pulled off of his motorbike and beaten with a rock.
merged: 04-09-2008 ~ 07:33pm
The games are not about politics though. It's an athletic event.
Human rights: the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and expression, and equality before the law. Under this banner, people have the rights to protest.
Putting aside China's losses politically, economically, strategically, and millitarily if Tibet was free. Although i know little about Tibet, but is it really better off on its own? Would it become just another poor country that the UN has to provide aid? Is a religious based government be any good? Forget about the monks for a minute, what do the ordinary Tibetan believes in?
Historically speaking, the Qing Empire occupied Tibet throughout the 18th century and signed treaties in 1914 with the British in which Britain recognized Chinese suzerainty over Tibet, providing a legal stance of Chinese rule of Tibet under international law. All governments these days recognize the PRC's sovereignty over Tibet and none have recognized the Government of Tibet in Exile in India.
a couple of years ago, the OC chose China to host the athletics-instead-of-war every-4th-year event; obviously, China is no way an example for athletics-instead-of-war.
and has never been. China invented civilisation that we all have today- i.e.: very-supreme leader, supreme-vice-leaders, noble-vice-vice-leaders, bureaucracy, paper, taxes and licenses for every single economic activity, gunpowder, army, laws for everything, fines, prisons, public executions; restricted areas, palaces, futile wealth; art for upperclass, circus for lowerclass. and so on. we're all like that now (except for African tribes and head-hunters). this is our civilisation.
the Olympiads are just a greek remnant cover.
a couple of years ago, the OC chose China to host the athletics-instead-of-war every-4th-year event - because of economics. we all know why. the Chinese do too.
Tibet is nowhere in this equation. it's a word in the Dalai Lama lesson, who's a friend of Richard Gere. and the location of a Brad Pitt movie.
are Tibetans a different people? yes.
do they want out of Chinese rule? yes.
do they have guns? no.
do we need war with China? NO.
can we do something about it? well, there's something that we proved efficient: export guns, export murderers, export hatred, export racism, export war. seeds will grow. only afterwards we may consider UN police, UN resolution, UN-made state.
can Tibetans go this way? are they plenty to spare?
do we have a plan?
enough of that.
the youtube video with the beaten biker: street riots attract the dirt and the scum. which looks just like everyone else, and lives just as long. expect no other.
it's been decided: in spite of everything, the Olympiad will be held in China.
if it were hosted by the States, not even Cubans or Russians would protest. not even the talibans (as they're not into athletics)
americans, as individuals, do have the right to complain; but as a country, the leaders won't
Once again we have the ignorance of the difference between China's government and the Chinese people and two unequal entities become a singular "them." This is why protests actually enhance Chinese solidarity. Bashing of China's government becomes bashing of the Chinese in general. And you wonder why the Chinese people are suspicious of western media. Beijing doesn't even need to fan nationalism. Comments such as these have done the job.
Then again it might be just you reading far too deeply into my comment. I've no problem with people worldwide, just certain entities. When I was in Afghanistan, I met a lot of cool Afghans and they didn't hold these grudges against Americans. Our media tends to have us all believe that they all want us dead and want the end of capitalism. I am referring to the governmental body in charge of China. I'd imagine they bash us (or should I preface with our government) as much as we do them (again, the government). And again, I don't know enough of world politics, so I won't claim that I do. But at the same time, I know when certain aspects bother me, and I've no problem voicing exactly that.
Well, i my friends told me that Tibet is really-really unforgiveable... But, i really don't understand...
Here in Mexico, we call this kind of situation "winning the raffle of the tiger" You win a raffle which prize is a tiger. Now you have a half-ton predator at your home. I think the English equivalent is "bit more than can swallow".
That's what China got when was elected as the venue of the 2008 Olympic Games. And I think China's goverment deserves it.
China's goverment arroglanty (as ever) thougth that it'll be they ultimate chance to show the world its economic "miracle" (which, by the way, it's based on piracy). What the authoryties got was well-deserved, all-around-the-world denunciation of its hitorical crimes.
REMEMBER TIANANMEN'S MASSACRE
REMEMBER MAO'S MASSIVE KILLINGS
CHINA'S GOVERMENT BETRAYS AND KILLS ITS OWN PEOPLE
Mireya do you know anything about China that you learned through your own research? Do you even know the circumstances that led up to Tiananmen Square? Better yet, do you know where Tiananmen Square is?
Stop yelling slogans when you don't even know what it is you're protesting, let alone the underlying issues involved.
The problems in China will not be solved by China-bashing slogans.
As for shoujoboy, there is indeed a problem when protesters unconsciously and automatically use a blanket "they" when referring to China. "They" are all communists, "they" pirate goods, "they" jail their own people. It does reflect an ingrained prejudice that all Chinese people are the same as the government. You will notice that those who have studied China and understand its dynamics never use the blanket "they" but make a clear distinction between the actions of the government and of the people.
And whether Chinese media bashes the US is irrelevant. Michael Jackson molested little boys. Does that mean you can do it too?
I think there is a clear distinction between child molestation and voicing ones distaste for a certain establishment. One of them is covered by the Bill of Rights while the other is blatantly illegal. I realize you are trying to drive your point home, but to somehow coorelate child molestation to voicing ones opinion just shows you are trying entirely too hard to be right.
My point, one you seem not to get, is that your argument that Chinese media's likely anti-American bashing justifies Americans bashing China is based on a false premise. You're not voicing your distaste in that case. You're saying "because they probably do it to us we can therefore do it to them." That's not voicing distaste, now is it?
I don't think protesters realize how large china's army. They could probably whip just about any other country by running them out of ammunition.
A few comments.
It truly amazes me that in such an interconnected world there are still so many people so extremely ignorant about politics, culture, and society of countries outside of their own. I cannot see how any informed and objective observer can possibly equate human rights conditions in the United States to those of China.
In the United States, measures were implemented after 2001 in order to streamline existing means for preventing acts of domestic terrorism. Although these measures have been met with quite the brouhaha, the hysterical hyperbole is -- for the most part -- misplaced, as they have had little or no real immediate impact upon the civil liberties of most Americans. The United States remains a liberal democracy which respects the rule of law.
On the other hand, there is no rule of law in China, and conditions there are neither liberal nor democratic. The government can be extremely repressive, and it utilizes one of the most sophisticated censorship mechanisms in deployment in conjunction with state-controlled media in order to maintain internal stability and control what information is available and how that information ought to be interpreted. As a result, the average Chinese citizen cannot be faulted with being bewildered by the anti-China protests that have been occurring since the average Chinese citizen simply does not know the full extent of what has been going on in Tibet or Xinjiang province, let alone the connection between the Chinese government and the situation in Sudan.
In short, you cannot be more wrong with your statement; there is in fact a vast -- and obvious -- gulf between the governments of the United States and the PRC when it comes to protection of human rights.
Because the Olympics have always been a political event. Some wars are fought on the field of battle. Some others are fought in conference rooms. And some are fought in the guise of a sporting event. In all three forms, national honor is at stake, and particularly for the host country. Historical examples abounded; 1936 was a showcase for Nazi Germany to demonstrate the supposed superiority of National Socialism, the games during the Cold War were little more than a thinly-veiled contest between the United States and the Soviet Union, and the 1972 games were used by Black September in order to further the cause of Palestinian nationalism.
For China, the Olympics are a matter of political prestige. In many ways, the Chinese government sees the selection of its capital as the host city for the 2008 Olympics as an indication of its growing influence in the world. To the Chinese government, the Olympics are most certainly not a mere sporting event; rather, it is political theater where it can showcase to the world that it has become a first-tier world power. The plans for the torch relay are testament to this, as the Chinese organizing committee purposefully set up the longest and most elaborate torch relay in history for the Beijing Olympics in order to demonstrate to both international and domestic audiences the position Beijing sees for itself in the international system.
You are right in pointing out this distinction. The overwhelming majority of the Chinese citizenry subscribe fully to the nationalistic agenda propagated by the Beijing government. The Chinese people are glad that their country was selected to host the Olympics and are proud of how fare their country has come, and as such they become defensive and understandably upset when faced with such vigorous protest.
While the average Chinese is not marching off to Tibet to shoot at or beat Tibetan monks, he is blissfully unaware of the scale and scope of the unrest. Most importantly, he is unaware of why the unrest is occurring because the only information he has regarding the situation is that given to him by the government. As such, his natural reaction is to act with indignation at those casting dispersions upon his country, therefore contributing to animosity between China -- as an entity -- and the West.
While that may be true, it is ultimately irrelevant. What makes China particularly influential in the world is not the size of its military, but the size of its population Edit: and its ability to produce and consume. Because China believes that it now deserves to be considered a world power and is therefore using the Olympics as a means of demonstrating its new status, it will see any disruption of its careful choreography as a personal insult. A number of EU heads of state are considering boycotting the opening and/or closing ceremonies, which will certainly communicate disapproval for China's domestic and foreign policies.
It must be noted though that President Bush, however, may not be at liberty to do participate with the boycott, however, because economic support from China will be critical in order for the United States to weather the current economic situation with minimal difficulty. His absence would do much to embarrass the Chinese government and possibly help to make it reconsider its policies, but at the same time it could cause a real backlash in trade relations between the two countries. In this particular situation, the potential long-term benefits of such a move may be far outweighed by the potential short-term costs, especially given that this is an election year with a very heated contest.
^You lose. That was a joke. BTW the PLA has over 7 million members, 2.3 million standing military and i think like 1.3 or something million standing army.
Unfortunately, I believe the Olympics has turned itself into a political theatre despite the honourable premise it was originally established on. One can no longer divorce politics from the Olympics as one would expect the whole deal of membership with the IOC, choosing the host country, managing the event and ancillary events (such as the Torch Relay), and banking on the prestige associated with being selected to host arguably the greatest sporting event ever has politics and political ramifications oozing throughout.
China has certainly pulled out all the stops to host the games, but at what cost? The thousands of citizens involuntarily dislocated to provide space for venues; the enormous investment in infrastructure that, like many Olympics before, may become a white elephant; the ambition to promote itself, forcibly if necessary, onto the world spotlight.
One cost of that ambition has been the focus of attention with the protests on the Torch Relay - it is, quite simply, an easy target out in the open. The ability to disrupt the symbolic bringing together of the world for sport through the Olympics and associated events may be seen as a political avenue to exploit by individuals who are otherwise unable to easily convey their concerns because of the political regime in place. Maybe this is a wake-up call to China, a call that has been percolating below the surface due to the media and political restrictions in the country. Now it is being imposed upon a symbol of China's new prosperity and the privilege of being selected to host the Olympics.
The next question will be: what happens after the Olympics are over and the hype has died down. Does everything go back to how it was? Don't think so. China has thrust itself into the midst of a geopolitical spotlight and some of the dirty laundry or skeletons in the closet (choose what you will) have been dragged out too. People can protest all they want, but they have to make those who run the country take notice and any avenue available to them will be exploited --- even one as honourable as the Olympics.
What?... Huh?
Ah! I didn't read shoujoboy's post. Perhaps he has done a little, very little mistake in calling "them" instead of "the Chinese goverment". But write "Chinese goverment" before "jail their own people" "pirate goods" and I think it'll be quite rigth.
Yes, yes and yes. I love History. I have books, and I read four different History monthly magazines. I don't know if have read about it, because you'd be horrified. I don't have them here at hand, but as long as I remember, Mao killed even more people than Hitler and Stalin together.
I don't know where ti begin, but let's try to make a fast view over China's politics:
1. THE (never reached) COMMUNIST UTHOPIA: It's funny (well, it really isn't) that a system where everyone should be the same and equal produces egocentric monsters as Stalin, Mao, Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez; all self-proclamed messhias and lovers of worshiping of their own images. It also produces an oligarchy of bureucrats that isn't supposed to exist in such a system. This may sound as a harmless play, but it ALWAYS HAS LEAD to:
2. CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY
Just some examples
a).-Let's not count those that died in China's revolution. He betrayed the intelectuals of the very own Communist partie. He launched a program called something like "a thousand flowers open, a thousand opinions received". It was supossed to be a feedback over the partie's polytics to ammend the wrongs. Those who were naive enough to open their mouths receives a bullet in the head.
To capture this intellectuals, Mao recruited boys and girls, mere childs, to form a special, lets call it "force". Imagine something like Scouts on esteroids and a gun. When the intellectuals were erased, Mao was affraid of his own army of youngs, so he exiled them to the farest limits of China.
Since then, the tradition says: "you open your mouth, you know what to expect".
b).-ONE CHILD PER FAMILY.- Why there are more guys than girl in China? Easy. The goverment taxes couples than have more than one child. So a boy meant future support for the old parents. A girl meant no garantee. So newborn girls are discretly killed. How many babies have died since then? THIS COMES FROM:
c).-In the Communist Philosophy, an individual is just a tiny wheel in the giant machine of the state. So, you're disposable. A life means nothing (unless you are a goverment's functionary).
3.- TIANANMEN SQUARE That's in Pekin. 1989 Just some war thanks and the army against a pacifist protest, drawn in blood. 5,000 dead.
Hope tat at least that little guy standing in front of the thanks survived...
Well, at least I think I proved to know something, very little, but something.
Now I HAVE A LITTLE HOMEWORK FOR YOU TO DO.
Look in Internet for these words: TLATELOLCO PLAZA (or square), TLATELOLCO MARTIRS, MEXICO 1968 OLYMPIC GAMES, STUDENT KILLING, DIAZ ORDAZ.
We had or own Tiananmen square. I have never sympathised with the ideals of that generation. They were communist following Fidel and the Che Guevara. BUt they were harmless kids in a pacific protest killed by the ghoverment. To have some nice Olympic Games.
Now look in CNN for what's happening in the Mexican Congress rigth now. That missdeed created a generation of traumatized people that rigth now only know to react with violence, following the voice of an irresponsible "messiah".
It wakes up awareness of the situation. So I think it helps.
See ya
Hmm... Hitting the radio makes the static noises stop, so I think it helps.
Actually, bashing-slogans are more likely to trigger ignorant anger reactions from people who don't know the whole story and strengthen any negative beliefs that China may have against other countries. Rather than "bashing", it's better to make your points matter-of-factly than to deliver your information like an insult.
5,000 dead in Tiananmen Square? Cite your sources please. That's the first time I've ever heard that number from anywhere, Chinese or western. In any case, that event is not nearly as simple as you portray. Your account just parrots that overused photo of one man in front of a line of tanks, and makes no effort to show that you understand the underlying political forces that led to the crackdown in the first place.
Your account of the Cultural Revolution is incorrect. The Cultural Revolution was not a massacre of the people under Mao's direction but rather a violent internal party struggle between rival factions. Mao vs Deng Xiaoping and Liu Shaoqi, and later Lin Biao plus the Gang of Four. Mao wanted to purge the "rightists," that is true. But what did "rightist" mean? He did not initiate or order the mass waves of killings that occurred. The "rightist" label was bastardized by political extremists as a convenient means to get rid of their own personal enemies. Don't assume that everything in those days came directly from Mao.
Your view of the One Child policy is also entirely skewed. It was a policy created to achieve the necessary goal of containing explosive population growth. If you study Chinese geography, you'll notice that China's land areas suitable for agriculture is actually extremely small compared to the population this land must support. Some measure was needed to prevent an unsustainable population. You can argue whether limiting families to having only one child is the best policy, but that people abort pregnancies confirmed to be girls is merely a by-product of a thousands-of-years-old cultural tradition of patriarchy. It is in no way the government intentionally supporting the killing of girls. And don't even bother arguing that that is "wrong" or "immoral." Chinese cultural beliefs differ significantly from the Christian believe in God-created life at conception.
By the way, in today's China, women can support their parents just as well as men.
And as for your version of "Communist Philosophy," I only need to refer you to the nearest library's copy of the Communist Manifesto. Read it, and then come back and talk to me about Marx's version of Hegel's dialectic.
Finally, no, bashing China will not help and will not raise awareness. Remember, the only people who cares about the China-bashing are 1. people doing the bashing, and 2. the Chinese. Group 1 are already supposedly "aware" of why they're bashing China, though my experiences tell me that most are just ignorant prejudicial fools.
That leaves group 2.
If you have ever made even the slightest attempt to read commentary from Chinese citizens on the recent protests, you will notice that the only thing these protests have achieved is to inflame Chinese nationalism. In effect, all the China-bashing and protests have actually empowered hardliners in Beijing and made it harder for any reform on human rights issues. Any attempt now at reform will be portrayed as caving in to the west. Beijing can now easily crack down even harder on human rights activists, and now it will actually have the support of most Chinese people.
It's telling that before March 14, Beijing's biggest crisis was containing rapidly rising inflation. Now, you'd be hard pressed to find any one talking about that issue. And frankly, millions of people not being able to afford buying foodstuff is a much bigger threat to Beijing's hold on power than anything Tibet and Dalai Lama can raise. Yet, that's now out the window.
Think about the approach. It's clearly not working. Don't stubbornly stick to this method of bashing China and protesting everything China-related under the sun. In this you'd become just like the Chinese government.
Uh, the Olympic torch was actually brought in, as a sign of unity and Aryan-ness against Jews and other different people in the 1936 Berlin Olympics.
How can one remove the politics from one of the symbols of the olympics, when it is steeped in such a history?
It's a propaganda device created by Goebbels (Minister for propaganda during Hitler's Reich); and so it is also a political tool.
merged: 04-12-2008 ~ 10:05am
Ah yes, and what of these civil liberties that only apply to Americans? The measure implemented have affected many more than you seem to think. A man kept in prison for 5 years without being charged? Can that be called having his civil liberties upheld?
The United States remains a law unto itself.
My God.
I have hit onto an double-agent of the Chinese Goverment.
This website is doomed.
My sources? I don't "parrot". The papers, the news and History magazines. Latelly it has been remembered in many media as part of Chin'as Goverment crimes against Humanity.
The little guy in front the thank? A BRAVE MAN. One that doesn't "parrot" China'as goverment's versions. Possibly dead by now.
Yeah, but I said something like "let's not count those who were killed during the Revolution" by the way, he killed a lot then) but I meant those that died AFTER the Revolution, in order to keep his throne of messiah and absolutist, unquestionable ruler. Not only the purge of the criticts inside the Partie (which, by the way, was a BETRAYAL against those who believed him), but those that died of hunger or exhaustation in his ridiculous goal to produce twice the grain and iron... a goal made only to peacock in front of the Soviets.
If there's a hell, bet Mao is very far from Satan, because if I were Satan, I wouldn'y like to have someone as Mao near to me.
As everything in the Universe comes from the Big-Bang, all the suffering in China comes from Mao and his acolytes, and the communist olygarchy that are his heirs
Oh, veeeery nice excuse to have babies killed. They DON'T NEED to use the agricultural lands to live. China's is big, and they even EXPORT people. And they also GOT TIBET, so they have even more room. The policie only says: "Thiny wheel of the Big Motor of the State, you're higliy disposable. More if you're woman and a baby".
So is Mexico and we don't kill baby girls. And so are Muslim, so much by far, and they don't kill girls.
They just corner the parents at the precipice's edge and push them with the finger.
Yes I bother. Ask any Human Rigths activist of any country if this is just "a cultural matter", and you'll hear what he answers you.
This IS NOT CULTURAL. IT'S POLITICS. Show me a culture were killing newborns is something natural, and be sure that such a culture is in decay. And you can bet that the Chinese don't contemplate killing newborns as a part of their milenary culture
Let's grant you that. But not outside the cities. The woman joins the man's family. The parent's can't rely in a girl that will be a housewive AND workers in the husband's family.
The proof is the pictures where you can see guys dancing with guys at parties. There are less women.
I studied that. Believe me, a lot. I think it was a nice way to say it in a short way.
That's as objective as, let's say, that you or I are could be ignorant prejudicial fools too?
Because they're brainwashed. As the Cuban.
sex-selective infantcide has exisited far before the existence of the communist government in China.
This is most likely due to chinese traditions where only the males would carry the family name, a bride becomes a member of the groom's family when she gets married, thus males would be favoured over females due to the idea that the males would be the one supporting their parents since the females will belong to their husband's families (however this is not such the case in modern times). while sex-selective infantcide is not a chinese culture, it is however, caused by chinese traditions.
From what I have heard, all this protests have made the China chinese hate the western people and it doesn't seem to change the stance the China people had on Tibet. I have also heard that they (the angered china people) are planning to boycott western products and Carrefour.