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When tradition kills [India and other countries]

Odeena

Odeena

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Two days ago, I read on Yahoo! News that a couple in an Indian village had been beaten and then strangled, because they were from the same village and different casts and therefore were absolutely NOT supposed to be together. What's more, the people who'd committed the murder were actually proud of themselves! Saying that the couple had broken the "traditions" and the only way for their families to redeem themselves was to kill them. That's nothing short of barbaric... isn't it?

Then, yesterday I came across this article. People stoning each other also seems to be a "tradition".

Some people might say that it's not our right to judge other people's culture and traditions. Then again, when said traditions lead to murder and the murderers get away with it [and are proud of what they'd done, too], I think it's time for people with a fresher approach to step up and get rid of such things once and for all.

I'm curious to know what your views on the matter are, and what could be done to rid the world of such barbaric things.

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That dosen't seem right at all.Killing is killing,whether it be murder or accident.My opinion is that the law should step in...even though i can't stand them they are still good for reasons as this.Some traditions these are.


Indee

Indee

Indee

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I would like to tell you that in Indian villages education still is really out of reach for them. They are satisfied with what they have, they don't want to adopt western culture. The government is really trying hard to help them. But, it will take sometime. I get to here news which are more wierd than this one. But, it does not matter because I know that the education, poverty and high inflation are not the problems which can be solved really fast. All we can do is try hard to convince them and have faith in our efforts. There are some superstions which lead to death too. I know that they are terrible, but its the way they are. But there are also educated section of society and they staunchly oppose these traditions.

Indee

shoujoboy

shoujoboy

Ruining dreams since 1983

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It's almost the politically correct thing to say "who are we to judge another's culture", but the fact is, some cultures are better than others. Is American culture perfect? Of course not. But is it BETTER than others, hell yes! Better than cultures that hides it's women and treats them as second class citizens. Better than cultures who kill in the name of religion. We may have a few people within our own that may commit these types of atrocities, but it isn't socially acceptable. Everyone is so quick to say that we can't understand other peoples beliefs, which may be true, but at the same time I can point right at it and say "well their's clearly isn't right."

Besides, it isn't like every other country in the world (save a scant few) doesn't hate America, so why not flip the bird back at a few of them.

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Odeena

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Quote by shoujoboyIt's almost the politically correct thing to say "who are we to judge another's culture", but the fact is, some cultures are better than others. Is American culture perfect? Of course not. But is it BETTER than others, hell yes! Better than cultures that hides it's women and treats them as second class citizens. Better than cultures who kill in the name of religion. We may have a few people within our own that may commit these types of atrocities, but it isn't socially acceptable. Everyone is so quick to say that we can't understand other peoples beliefs, which may be true, but at the same time I can point right at it and say "well their's clearly isn't right."

Besides, it isn't like every other country in the world (save a scant few) doesn't hate America, so why not flip the bird back at a few of them.

:) You just touched a major issue here -- this kind of things happen everywhere, but in America murder is not acceptable, no matter the reasons for it. It's the same in Europe and Japan, and in every other country that deems itself to be "modern" and "civilized".

I wonder if there's anything more that can be done besides just pointing fingers though...

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angelxxuan

angelxxuan

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it is a tradition...in japan it started with the meiji era that people of different classes could be married and not shun, beaten...some traditions still live in japan, as other countries and personally even though I don't think all of them are "right" it is their "way of life" and nothing can be, or better yet should be done about it, because it would just start another sad disposition when they do something about it

ashi ga tsuku

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I kinda don't think we have a right to point fingers unless your culture is totally perfect. America use to have slavery and it is not really that long ago that America had segregation, which only by restructuring the laws and protesting, that the problem was solved. America is not the only example for you can find things on other countries as well such is the case with this India. Just a little thought to think about.

Odeena

Odeena

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On the contrary, like shoujoboy said, some cultures are better than other, and I, as a person belonging to a culture where murder is a reprobable act, have every right to point my finger to people from another culture where murder is something you take pride in and say, "Hey, wait a minute! That's not right!" This isn't a competition about whose culture is perfect and whose culture is only "halfway there"; it's a matter of basic human rights: the right to exercise your free will, to love and live with whoever you want to.

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Quote by IndeeI would like to tell you that in Indian villages education still is really out of reach for them. They are satisfied with what they have, they don't want to adopt western culture. The government is really trying hard to help them. But, it will take sometime. I get to here news which are more wierd than this one. But, it does not matter because I know that the education, poverty and high inflation are not the problems which can be solved really fast. All we can do is try hard to convince them and have faith in our efforts. There are some superstions which lead to death too. I know that they are terrible, but its the way they are. But there are also educated section of society and they staunchly oppose these traditions.


Education does not excuse them from the crimes of their traditions. Morality is the case and not whether they know better or not. As human beings, they should know that no religion holds the right to a person's life, I recall what Ghandi said, "Do not do unto others what you do not want them to do unto you" such words need not be taught as this is wisdom. Don't tell me that these people have no self will? Traditions are made to be broken. Otherwise we would still be living in the dark ages.

As for Countries traditions, Japan (nature & history) and most european countries like england and france (etiquette & chivalry) have traditions to be admired.

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I agree. But I don't agree that the west is better just like shoujoboy said.

shoujoboy

shoujoboy

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Your right, the US DID have slavery and DID have segregation, but society needs to learn from it's mistakes and do whatever they can to fix them. I said our society isn't perfect, no one society is. At the same time the problems that we do have, we work to correct them as best we can and when a problem is brought to the light, they are listened to as opposed to silenced. We have so many interest groups in the US that sometimes problems arise that nobody else can see, but at least we work to discuss or fix them. For that reason I will say we are better than other cultures. Ones that are so stuck in tradition or religion that they completely ignore common logic. Societies who never evolve past barbarism or ignorance and latch on to the the whole "it's our culture, you just don't understand it". I'm not saying I am personally better than any particular citizen of another culture, that would be a gross statement to make. But as a whole, yes there some societies better than others.

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Okee Dokee then ;) But I'm a firm believer that in any part of the world, most people work for a common good and just to get by. I don't know what the article said, but at the same time we are not around this culture as much. Most people in this web site are from the west. Our news is in English which is the closest to experience other cultures. And if it's so bad why do our news do nothing about it? Instead, we have john celebrity interviews libral bashing. Anyways, shoujoboy and odeena as well as anyone else in this forum has the right to their opinion. If the west is better for you, it's fine, don't listen to me to change it OK ;)

Odeena

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The article described the murder, in very graphic details, and there was also a photo of the bodies. Here it is, for short [spoiler tag added because this might be *too* graphic for younger readers - you have been warned].

Spoiler:

A band of people from that village broke into the couple's house, dragged them out, beat them, then strangled them. The woman was also pregnant. Then, they left the corpses outside for everyone to see. The article also said that the people in the village put pressure on the police to not start an investigation, and one man who was interviewed said that he was proud of what had happened and that it was the only way to make things right.

Agian, this is not an argument of whether the East or the West is better, but of whether people should be allowed to go this far in the name of tradition. There's nothing to be misunderstood or misinterpreted as far as this particular story, as well as many others of its likeness, are concerned. Murder is murder, and nothing more. Right?

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What meaning is there in ''tradition''. Traditions seems like habits or ways that people pursue just because they have been followed for a long time or because they are simply common. Such silliness should be thrown away.

Some will say that this leads to loss of characters and makes the world a more dull place... but really, must we structure our mannerisms according to arbitrary things like the past or local norm in order to maintain individuality and different flavors for locales? I doubt it. Besides, maintaining the individuality and flavor of locales this way would clearly most probably lead to loss of individuality and flavor amongst individuals. I would say the latter is probably more important.

Regardless, if mannerisms, behavior, e.t.c are instead structured around logic and efficiency in order to optimize then due to varying constraints and characteristics of locales this will clearly lead to individuality and different flavors for these locales.


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Hey. There is a police that thought it wrong though. The same thing happens here to. But think. No one here has ever been to India. How would we know whats what their culture is really like. I think most people in there are probably just the same as the people in here.

merged: 05-19-2008 ~ 10:27pm
And to put the record straight, I think murder is absolutely wrong. But I feel that pointing your finger at the whole society is not deserved. So yeah, if you want to point your finger at this can be a way of stopping the tradition.

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Btw, when I said ''locals'', I actually meant ''locales''. I have edited my earlier post, but not many would re-read it so I mentioned it here to, though it is a matter of little import.

Wrong or right can only be determined on an individual basis by the moral axioms held by said individual. Some things though, can more or less be treated as though they were generally or objectively morally wrong or right since the percentage of the majority is sufficiently close to 100% that we can approximate it to actually being 100%. However, when it comes to murder, many believe it to be morally wrong to kill for ANY reason whereas many instead have killing being wrong or right depending on the circumstances, motivations,e.t.c.

The latter belief seems to me to be more constructive and reasonable, but axioms by definition have no proof so... Even so, what is ''good'' (constructive) is once again set by axioms.

What I suspect is the case though, is that once many of those who think that killing is ALWAYS morally wrong will re-evaluate that notion after thinking it through (or having it's randomness demonstrated to them).

Many who say this will probably change mind once I pose things to them such as killing in self-defense or killing a few to save many from death (for example).

For those who assume to much, that is not to say that I consider the murder in this topic to be justifiable, though there may be those with odd, arbitrary and perhaps rarely held axioms that may think it is justifiable.

It seems to me that if the people who committed this murder rationally thought it out they see that their actions were either evil or stupid. They may value tradition but if they weighed it up against how morally wrong they consider murder to be, they would probably see this though it remains possible that via their axioms they were justified in murdering this couple.

Regardless, one does not act and condemn according to ohters axioms.

Personally, optimizing the greatest good (not moral good, just ''good'' things in general... happiness basically) seems the wisest and most sensible route to me. To that effect, these people should be punished greatly. Their punishment should indicate that such stupidity will no longer be accepted and that others had better think things through before so trivially ending human life. Basically, uncontrolled violence is generally not in the interest of the greater good (though a little violence here and there can definitely be a good and delicious thing depending on the circumstances).

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Well there s no point in writing novels so I ll say it short.Traditions are just traditions,rules are rules and some can be broken(there are always exceptions)if you re smart enough to give good reasons.Most people from that zone pretty much don t have reasoning because of their fanaticism.Yet if you re smart enough and you see this you can avoid a lot of bad things.Even though the couple had a tragic death,the people who did the crime will surely pay,also the people who are...proud of what happened.The couple must have surely anticipated this but there was nothing to do I m sure.Some just take rules too seriously without reasoning them first.Very extreme and going on the extreme side is never good.

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''Well there s no point in writing novels so I ll say it short''

You wouldn't be implying anything would you? :D. (not saying you would necessarily be wrong if you were).

''Even though the couple had a tragic death,the people who did the crime will surely pay,also the people who are...proud of what happened''

Do you say this because you know something of the law and law enforcement in the area in which this murder occurred that would lead you to believe that punishment will be served?

''The couple must have surely anticipated this but there was nothing to do I m sure''

A romantic notions lies in that perhaps, considering that if that is so then these people risked their lived (or perhaps even seriously shortened their lifespans/lives to a fairly specific pre-estimated date/time) to be together.

It might be said though, that they loved to much but not wisely, as they could perhaps have opted to keep their love a secret. Just a suggestion.

Heh, most do not understand that rules are basically senseless. We should sometimes have general guidelines though, but laws and rules to be carried out regardless of the specific circumstances of the situation as foolishness. All should generally be carried out according to value-cost analysis using estimates if necessary.

I would say we are mostly in agreement about the faults of rules and following them unconditionally.

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I m mostly talking about the life in that zone.Even if you know what rules lie in that Indian village and how people are I would like too see how you would succeed in changing something regarding their traditions and beliefs.With your style of thinking you wouldn t be able to survive in that zone I m sure.Did read the article?There are 2 villages which have a seriously barbaric tradition.The two were from those 2 villages Do you actually think that the couple had no idea of what was going on?Also the woman was pregnant,and in my opinion that s serious relationship,and in what I know about those kind of things is that when you re in something like that do everything to stay together all the time,have their own place.The woman was 20 and the man was 27.Do you actually think they were stupid?

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You seem to have completely misread my post. Somehow, you seem to have to come to the conclusion that I thought this couple stupid.

I don't know what would give you this idea. The closest thing (to giving such an idea) would be my suggestion of this couple trying to keep their love a secret which may have made me sound as though I thought they hadn't thought of such an obvious thing.

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In your first reply you seemed very skeptical about my post,quoting some of my phrases.You say they could keep their love a secret.The woman was pregnant.Do you know how a parent reacts when he finds out that his daughter is pregnant?The first thing would be the questioning who s the father.I don t think there would be any possibility to lie about that.There is no way they could keep their love a secret when a baby was on the way.Think about how strict these people are.

Radha

Radha

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Well traditions will change only if the people following them change. No one can do anything about it unless they want to change themselves. Its only upto the future generations of such people to change such irrational traditions and cultures.

Most of the people in rural India (dunno much about other places & am an Indian) are born into families which have no education other than what the elders in the family have taught them. So we can't blame them for practicing what has been taught to them. Its like they say ' A frog in the well does not know the ocean.' So if proper education was given to future generations may be things would improve.

Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

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It is naturally simple to say that the traditions need to be abandoned, but obviously its not that simple. Most,if not everyone believe that everyone else believe in the "tradition". No one dares to challenge it, because the person would have most likely lose the collective security, which I believe is rather important in rural areas. If no one dares to challenge it, it is impossible to change it. Education and development will most likely get rid of those traditions since a huge number is being taught to forget those sort of traditions. (Not that bringing in education is easy either)

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