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What is spam? Where do we draw the line?

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A discussion about what exactly constitutes "spam" here at Minitokyo is a good idea. Please limit your posts here to discussing your opinions and please do not mention any particular member's name as an example of a "serial spammer", rather cite instead, examples of what has been posted which you find personally to be annoying, offensive, or somehow pushes the boundaries of decorum in a way which detracts from the enjoyment of others here at Minitokyo.

Although offensive language, links to inappropriate sites, images, etc., are disallowed, and the rules of each thread in the forums must be adhered to, no precise set of rules have been established regarding the setting of a hard and fast line between what constitutes spam and what is merely having fun and being silly. However, I know spam when I see it, yet my perception may be much different than that of other members. If a reasonable person would find a particular member's post too "spammy" and irritating then the issue should be addressed. That being said, it is also important to allow members to have fun and "blow off steam". We want Minitokyo to allow for enjoyment for everyone, if one member's antics interfere with the enjoyment of other members then again the matter should be dealt with. Perhaps a thread in the Minitokyo Discussions forum on this topic is in order. Before a precedent is set, some debate is warranted. If offending members read this thread, perhaps they will respond by ameliorating their behavior without any warning or pleading. To perceive the error of ones own ways without being scolded, is the preferred way. Effectuating self-remediation via introspection, after a close examination of the facts as they relate to ones actions and their effects upon others is a viable path to foster needed change.

pandemonium91

Retired Moderator, Tagger

pandemonium91

For me, spam means these:

1) comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the original topic. It's inevitable for a thread to stray from the original topic eventually (especially if it's a long one), but each post has to have at least some connection with the main topic being discussed.

2) excessive thread derailing. It's OK to go off on a tangent once in a while, just make sure you stay relatively on topic. If the thread becomes something entirely different than what it originally was, perhaps it's time to create a new one?

3) using a thread to carry out personal discussions and/or filling it with in-jokes (which ends up derailing it 90% of the time). Yeah, these are entertaining to the few involved, but the others will just wonder what the hell those people are talking about. Personal discussions go in guestbooks, PMs or the Off-topic Discussions forum if there's a bigger clique that needs to communicate.

4) posting only along the lines of "I don't know" or "Yeah, I agree". For heaven's sake, if you're clueless you don't need to let the whole world know. Just skip that topic and post in one that you actually know something about. This is especially true for threads where the OP asks for help; they get a notification and, thinking someone might finally have an answer for them, click on the link...only to find that some douche went "idk lol". Charming.

5) comments that are much too short. A lot of threads suffer from the "what's your favorite item/color/brand of socks?" syndrome where most of the posts just end up listing whatever the poster likes, with no explanation why. In a real conversation, you'd say at least a few more words: "I like mauve. It makes me happy and that is why I painted the entire interior of my house in it." or "I like these socks. They fill my soul with divine joy."; good talks don't just end abruptly like that.
"So, Random Internet Stranger, what's your favorite color?"
"Green."
"..."
*cricket chirp*

If you can't handle me at my best, then you don't deserve me at my worst!

it's so similar to good(and welcomed) jokes, to offensive ones.
Even in the forums, if you post one little spam post in a 500 post off-topic forums thread, it isn't all that bad, it's kinda quirky and fun. It's not too much like the spam which pandemonium san listed above.
While, i do think spam must be avoided on walls and scans, or making of spam threads. And if someone spams in your gb or PMs, you can just ask the person to stop and report him/her if he/she doesn't, i don't think anything's wrong in doing so. But in sb, it becomes very vague. It's called 'shoutbox' so you'd expect newbies to say aaaaaa or something like that at first :p
it isn't named 'chatbox' that'd make it necessary to adhere to some er.. conversational rules.. Though it's still wrong to post multiple times back to back, or to post links to suspicious sites etc. i don't think it's that wrong to even literally say 'SPAM' once in a while there, even if it's once every day :P
I seriously find it hard to understand why it would offend or annoy anyone, it's quirky, that's all.. It might even be spam, but i don't think it's necessary to force to stop/report that spam. Unless there's a gang of some 20 members who post 'cookies' 'cookies' 'cookies'.. 20 times, and leave, which is indeed 'report'able, i don't think we need to be bothered by it, if it's just one person who says 'coookieees' and leaves, it's not that bad.
And also, sometimes the sb gets reeeaally silent. Some random incoherent words can sometimes spark some kind of will to bring it back to life and make people contribute to a more meaningful conversation.. Anything which hampers/ruins communication/discussions is spam. And i do think that considering roleplay as spam on shoutbox is wrong. If it's just two people there, it's fun to lurk on their roleplay conversation

consider it similar to a small noise signal being the initial trigger which causes an oscillator to generate the desired frequency, not the noise that actually distorts the frequency.

sorry for the stupid example, i can't think of anything else which conveys it so well -.-'

Why die only once when you can die a little everyday

I agree with Pande-chan's points and have seen many a thread closed for some of those reasons. However, what is too random for the shout box? How many consecutive posts may someone make before it constitutes spam? Role play is discouraged when it interferes with normal conversations that are occurring at the same time. But, is it OK for a member to blow in to the shout box, post almost the exact thing that they do regularly, then vacate with no interaction whatsoever with other members?

Angi

Retired Moderator

Angi

But it is not this day!

I think the SB is randomness, why keep the SB so serious? is a place where you can shout whatever you want, as long as its not offensive/harrasing, that's what is made for right?
If you need to chat with someone specifically you go to their GB or send a PM, SB is is about freedom of saying whatever you want in my opinion. Is just like with scans restrictions, ecchi scans can almost show nipples but if they don't show them they are ok right? well in the SB as long as you don't offend or say anything inappropriate it can't be restricted, if there's a post in the sb that doesn't contain any bothering words, but still, bothers you, why not only ignore it? After all all the posts will disappear sooner or later.

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pandemonium91

Retired Moderator, Tagger

pandemonium91

Quote: Even in the forums, if you post one little spam post in a 500 post off-topic forums thread, it isn't all that bad, it's kinda quirky and fun. It's not too much like the spam which pandemonium san listed above.

It'd be silly to say that people will stay completely on topic for the entire thread :) In real life, that's just how conversation goes: someone says something about the color green, you remember a funny personal anecdote about salad or something, then go back to saying if you like/hate green, talk about other colors and things etc. There's nothing wrong with going slightly off-topic as long as you return to the subject at hand. For example, going completely off-topic would be someone requesting computer assistance in a thread about your favorite recipe involving potatoes.

As someone who's never participated in the shoutbox (I have it turned off) but has participated in chat (I'm sure most of us have), I agree with Compiler and Angel. "Randomness" is OK to a degree, as long as it doesn't get in the way of regular conversation. Shoutbox too silent? Post something funny to liven things up! Who knows, it might start a great conversation! But when people are having a (semi-)serious conversation it's annoying for someone to just jump in - multiple times, even - and act all cutesy and "random", because it breaks the flow.

IDK, it's all about responding at the right time. Being "random" once in a while is funny and refreshing, especially when the conversation grows stale, but doing it all the time (and moreso at inappropriate times) is obnoxious.

If you can't handle me at my best, then you don't deserve me at my worst!

Shoutbox is the most visited place members here use to talk, and therefore the easiest to access for spam and trolls. If you can spam it as you like and all that happens when someone brings it up is the response, SB is randomness, then you're pretty much saying it's fine to do it. Then more of them could come, some get reported, but others don't, because they say they're friends of someone. And you'll get surprised when the flood of complaints starts to come in.

The SB from what I was told when I first visited this site, isn't a playground in the slums. If it would be, I could just link my Seraphim's most famous screenshot if I want to cut someone's rambling short. If I would even bother coming to see what's going on here anyway.

Scans and the SB are not even in remotely related. Those pictures are meant to be source for wallers to make pictures which you then put on your desktop. So what if it's ecchi? You can see borderline porn on TV or the internet at any given time, so saying that ecchi scans show how relaxed the SB should be is not a good argument. They don't get used much in the first place, as very few wallers are willing to take them and make something out of one.

Ignoring someone only sounds fine when a it happens once, maybe twice. But when someone repeatedly is spamming, and doesn't even try to form meaningful sentences or participate in a conversation, then no, it's not at the point where you can just shrug. Because if you do, we're back to where the new wave of spammers and trolls come in.

Having a talk at your leisure is good. Disregarding the purpose of the SB is another question.

Angi

Retired Moderator

Angi

But it is not this day!

I know scans/sb are not related, I was just making a comparision of restrictions. And, if few wallers use them why there are so many? anyway...

I agree with pande, about responding at the right time, but since everyone has the free will to post whatever they want, we don't have control of what will show up in there next. There are forums where you can talk about serious stuff, and I understand that forums nowadays move somewhat slowly, so there's the sb option where you can chat about it, having in mind that you can be interrupted, since everyone can post there.
And well, complaining about all this is not doing to get anywhere, since this seems like a problem, I would suggest to give solutions too. What if mods stablish some chat rules? (don't know if there are already?) and have a link to them near the sb? like "history I refresh I rules"...

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It's not that I don't like members when they "spam" the shout box, it is that the act may be disruptive and those who do so short change themselves, because other members don't get to know them and become friendly with them. Posting funny things, puns, jokes, random things is OK in my opinion. If the shout box is dead sometimes I will post something I believe to be humorous, just to see if it initiates a reply. Still, one should engage oneself in a discussion or at least become involved in some of the random conversations, as this is a community. Would it not be so much more fun to get to know our neighbors better? If rules had to be laid out by a moderator, like me, then things become a bit too restrictive. Perhaps some general guidelines might help keep things functioning nicely without needless control being placed on members. With freedom comes responsibility. Let us all be responsible shout box and forum users then.

fireflywishes

Retired Moderator, Linguistics

fireflywishes

Calgon, take me away~!

I agree with Pande and Himi's point about members who consistently interrupt or bombard the SB with randomness being nothing short of obnoxious. If you're going to post in the SB, at least try and interact with others... otherwise all you are is an attentionwhore.. And nobody likes an Attentionwhore. (Sorry for being blunt)

For instance, if you choose to break the ice by posting a link of Grumpy Cat with the comment *Grumpy Cat is not amused*, at least try and engage with others AFTER posting randomness.

A simple "Hello" to members after posting would be nice... perhaps ask how their day is going.

You'd think that basic conversational norms would be enough of a guideline... and for the most part MOST members are using the SB for what it is... a place to interact with others. I would hate for the experience of ALL to be impacted by the poor choices of a few individuals.

/rant

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akiranyo

akiranyo

Astraea Kisaragi

If I should state my opinion, I doubt that SB is the main problem if you want make some regulations for spam. I can even survive if sometimes is empty, it happens and it nothing unsual for any site. For me the most annoying spam-wise is the huge ammount of off-topic discussions. I come up to MT, look at the active topics on the left side on frotpage and I see only Konata heads where half of the title will be "user above you" Many of those topics going on for a long time, they barely remember what about it was originally, and for a outsider it looks like a playground in the order to raise your MT statistics. I also sad that there are so many new and really good anime series and nobody give a damn to create a topic about, but if I would put on a dumb one like "Naruto or Sasuke" I would get sure 500 replies and from ppl who nobody knows at all. So definitely use a hammer on topics which will lead to obvious listfest replies. Don't say only "who or what", but say please also your reason "why you do"
Also randomness like "I created a [mainstream anime comes here]Fangroup on Facebook, so like me there" should shot on sight and the user give a (serious) warning.

Regarding SB, I don't mind a bit randomness as long it creates a discussion, so it should be given there a bit more freedom as on forums, after all as Angel said, it will dissappear anyways sooner or later. Regarding ecch pictures, I doubt is a problem to link anything what MT already accepted into his own gallery. SB is also only visible if you are logged in, and if you already registred, you accept that fact that you might see something "out of conservative"
There are multiple image galleries where you don't even need being registered to see even the most hardcore hentai images and are full of sexual advertisements. Basically, those sites are free to access without any restrictions.

Since I write satires, my whole life is one huge inspiration. (Horatius)
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Off topic section is called 'off topic' for a reason. Also, closing of topic section threads would be unfair. They keep the forums active, and people don't post there for achievements. Off topic forums give a very easy way to engage in light-hearted discussions without spamming so that everyone can participate, e.g. the ^<v thread. Communicating with strangers online can be very difficult, but given simple, easy to understand, somewhat unique and interesting guidelines, like the rules of the threads in off topic forums, it becomes very easy to talk and know people.

However, other forums require you to think, especially the general discussions forums.. most of the threads have more than one post with huuuuuuge wall of texts and it becomes tedious to read all that and then equally tedious to also add your thoughts which invariably becomes another wall of text. It takes time and efforts. Since most of us here come to pass time or to take a break from real life, stressing your brain too much becomes unattractive.
So off topic forums aren't spam threads, they're just convenient and hence tend to be frequented more by members as compared to other forums

Same is the case with Naruto/sasuke threads as compared to detailed series discussion threads. However, it's still considered spam if you just say Naruto and don't state a reason... and i also think just posting a link to FB group without any scope for discussion is spam.

Still, I think threads which discuss stories of anime in depth and some aspect of them won't be neglected if someone makes them. But, there are just too many anime/manga out there and no guarantee that the one you watched was watched by others and those others are active on mt and those active on mt are active on forums. That's why those threads get less replies. But maybe if someone posts about popular anime with good stories, it'll get replies. But it may end up with relatively long texts again.

Posting links to scans within MT is ok. Those who don't want to see anything 'out of conservative' already have turned their ecchi filters on and stay safe :P

As xangel0 and akiranyo said, we don't need to be so serious about shoutbox as the posts disappear after some time anyways. And as i said earlier, talking online with people of varied cultural background becomes a bit difficult at times without some simple subject. And unlike off-topic forums, shoutbox doesn't give any subject. Unlike groups and friend lists, you don't really know about everyone and their likes, etc. So, at least I, mostly tend to lurk there instead of really participating in a real conversation.. I, and some others may say some one or two random sentences sometimes like nerds or waffles, it's not an issue for me at least, it's amusing at times.
Also, it's really fun to lurk if there's roleplay going on in sb, i wonder why it's discouraged :P

Why die only once when you can die a little everyday

pandemonium91

Retired Moderator, Tagger

pandemonium91

@Akiranyo:
IMO the Off-topic discussions part of the forum should exist precisely to contain threads that are most likely to involve "simpler" discussion topics. If you want to avoid it altogether, just select the No option under "Chat Enabled" in Site Options. Admittedly, that will also disable to Shoutbox, but it will also hide the "forum threads about trivial topics" from the recent threads.
And indeed, I think non-registered/logged in people can see the more risky content (sex/violence-wise), only those that are registered have the option to turn them off.
The posts in Off-topic discussions don't count towards the post count of a member when considering achievements (I may be wrong but I remember this being true at one point).

@Compiler:
IMO, ^<v stuff is OK; it's meant to be silly and, like you said, can engage a lot of people that don't need to know each other in order to participate. It does get a bit off-putting when there's only 3 people posting again and again, but maybe others just aren't interested in that type of game.

Other Off-topic discussions should only be allowed if there's some degree of intellectual participation from the poster. Skim through most of the threads there that are started by people who don't usually participate and you'll notice a mod warning them that the thread needs more content to not be locked. For example, making a thread about your favorite character in Naruto/Bleach often just means people coming in, typing their favorite character's name (sometimes with spelling mistakes to boot), hitting "Post Comment" and leaving. These answers require absolutely no further thinking from the poster and would honestly be better off as polls, since those who want to vote can just click an option and those who genuinely want to participate with a longer response can do so.

Quote: stressing your brain too much becomes unattractive


Personally, I like to read and write long replies (obvious, huh) and I'm sure there are others like me here. That's what's so great about the forum, it has something for everyone! If you don't feel like reading long replies, visit the OT subforum. If you feel like debating something, visit another subforum.

Posting links to your/other people's FB/sites is spam since it's self-advertising. This, however, is fine to do in signatures and posts where it's relevant (like mentioning your graphic resource site in a thread of someone who's asking for resources).

If you can't handle me at my best, then you don't deserve me at my worst!

Darthas

Retired Moderator

Darthas

レキシコン

I would dart every reply in this thread, but it would be too long of a post.
But whatever Hoo has posted in the OT section is constituted as spam, and he is a spammer himself.
Isn't that enough to close this thread?

Everything in the OT subforum is spam by the way - none of it makes sense and none of it ever will.
It was made by people who encouraged spam on the website - something none of you can disagree with, unless you had any serious discussion in there which I doubt is the case.

Pand is right - in the saying that it is used to discuss less serious topics which do not require an intelligent and educated view all the time. Members have taken that - twisted it - and made it a spam section just posting nonsense. It has gotten bad enough that certain people have been viewed by others as rather . . illiterate and mentally obscured to a point that my attention is directed to their PM inbox for warning on low blows or 'jokes' on being personal.

Most of you are also confusing what a shoutbox is - with what a chatbox is. Using it as a chatting ground for prolonged periods of time is already defeating the purpose of a shoutbox.
I let it slide though.

The line is as far as the community guidelines allow - it is not difficult to know what is required of an individual in a social 'chatroom' since many of you termed it as one.

[20:54] Lexicon: I may be 3rd place in the popularity poll but at NASA, the # order is 3>2>1.
[20:56] DXBlair: its a placement poll..not a countdown idiot
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UberDog

UberDog

I Walk Alone...

Amen Darthas!

Knowledge and Time are the Keys to Wisdom.Signature Image

CyanideBlizzard

Retired Moderator

CyanideBlizzard

Margarita Time!

After reading through some of these posts, I also realize I'm late to the party but what the heck why not contribute.

First off is one major detail needs to be gotten out of the way. Right now, as Minitokyo stands, it's on the decline. Aside from Himi and Aki, the shout box generally consists of a handful of different people that come and go (Hoo, Angel and Huesin being the only other staffers that come in there semi-frequently) and aside from that, it's severely lost a lot of members. While the activity has slightly picked up in recent months, it is still down greatly from when I first came back to Minitokyo in mid 2009. Honestly, right now the last thing we should be focusing on is making more rules to alienate members from the shout box. We want to encourage members to join in conversations and if someone happens to be more random at times, I'm sure they've got a reason and if it's not causing harm then I see no foul to it. It's never been a problem in the past and if things get too out of control we've always talked to the member. Personally, the shout box is fine as it is. No need for us to go crazy about it and drive people out of it. Let's wait for it to become busier again and then go from there.

As for off-topic threads, well to be honest those threads are really the only threads that get activity.

It's sort of a sad-but-true statement. They're the threads that get the most attention and they are also the threads that are frequented the most out of any section. Threads that, generally speaking, require a much lengthier discussion are either ignored because the off-topic ones are more fun, or simply because there's just a general lack of member activity in the forums. Personally speaking, it falls in the same area that the shout box does. There is just not enough activity in the forums to keep any other types of threads active. Back in the hayday of MT, there were a lot more topics. Mainly because there were a lot more members going to the forums and creating diverse discussions. I would go so far as to say that the amount of spam threads really hasn't increased or decreased, it's just the amount of diversity in forum topics has simply because there is just no activity in that section anymore.

I would even argue that Off Topic threads are essential in aspects. They're fun way for members to meet new members. Sure, it may be a thread with minimal information, but that could lead to someone going to their userpage and starting a conversation. I know in the past that's how I met many different individuals, far more than I met in the more branched out conversations. Of course that isn't always the case, but they serve a purpose and they've been here since the foundation of the website. If Minitokyo wanted to push to limit them, or for some more action to be taken against I'd highly recommend yet again for Minitokyo to first work towards getting a more active and larger member base before establishing rules that generally create an initial negative response. Right now, the forums are literally dead outside of Off Topic Discussions.

Bottom line, I think Darthas summed up the facts of it. Random shouts are fine. People have always randomly shouted and it still isn't a problem. A daily random shout isn't going to cause any undue stress or wreck up a conversation, unlike someone genuinely spamming the chat or someone swearing up a storm. Random is what Minitokyo needs right now, because there's too much of the same going on. Minitokyo needs a big kick start, and random in my book is part of how it's going to get it.

After all, I joined Minitokyo to participate in something completely random on the shout box.

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Darthas

Retired Moderator

Darthas

レキシコン

If anything the off-topic section should be renamed as people have different understandings of the word 'off-topic' and probably why this was even started to begin with. True, lengthy discussions are tiresome to certain types of people - but for reference to the TT, renaming seems to be the best option then, but as usual that would not change anything unless you want to streak at the next Eagles game holding our site banner over your head. After all, shunning of the off-topic members was one of the reasons why people left in the first place, you can not call a black sheep black but you can call a white sheep black and expect him to take offense.

[20:54] Lexicon: I may be 3rd place in the popularity poll but at NASA, the # order is 3>2>1.
[20:56] DXBlair: its a placement poll..not a countdown idiot
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CyanideBlizzard

Retired Moderator

CyanideBlizzard

Margarita Time!

Quote by Darthas After all, shunning of the off-topic members was one of the reasons why people left in the first place, you can not call a black sheep black but you can call a white sheep black and expect him to take offense.

This is the biggest thing. The rules were already changed pretty drastically not too long ago and, as Darthas stated, a good amount of frequent users in the Off-Topic sections stopped coming to it.

Generally speaking, the Off-Topic section is the bread and butter of any forum website. It carries the widest range of topic and conversations. From there, usually or at least from what I've noticed, people will browse other sections of a forum or go to different places. Not always, but it's a possibility. Some people enjoy lengthy discussions, and some people come online to get away from debates or serious discussions and simply have fun. I think it's a huge reason why Off-Topic threads thrive. There's little to no importance behind them, but they're fun. An enjoyable way to do something casual on the side.

I also think, as Dathas mentioned in his post , is that further rules will just alienate more members of the forum. I don't think it's a bad idea to consider, but I wouldn't even recommend considering it unless it was the case where the forum activity increased by over ten times and all of it was solely in the Off-Topic section. Even then, it really comes down to the other threads that were created and what people know about them.

It's like with the current Fall contest. Without being able to broadcast, I don't think anyone really knows about it. Likewise with forum topics, if there's no interest or if no one informs anyone then odds are they won't bother to check out aside from simply seeing what the most recently discussed topic is.

Of course, this is all just personal speculation.

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UberDog

UberDog

I Walk Alone...

Amen CyanideBlizzard!

Knowledge and Time are the Keys to Wisdom.Signature Image

Darthas

Retired Moderator

Darthas

レキシコン

Better question is about how spam is being handled.

[20:54] Lexicon: I may be 3rd place in the popularity poll but at NASA, the # order is 3>2>1.
[20:56] DXBlair: its a placement poll..not a countdown idiot
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