Which is more important, Science or religion? [continued]

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ttwen somebody

^i thought they understand each other perfectly.

they are the same type after all, you mean A, the other means B.
so it's better to ignore.

Nov 23, 2008
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fmp111

Haha yes i faced palmed alright X-P

Anyway, sorry i took so long to reply, i have been busy with my work and whatnot.

to priincess

....ok...You don't seem to be getting it. You see, all of my arguments rely on the premise that god does not exist.

So saying 'fmp111, 'X' is wrong because it goes against god's word..." cant really be used as a rebuttal... since the premise of 'GOD DOES NOT EXIST' is taken as true.

Obviously, your not going to let it go that easily, i will be happy to debate upon the existence of god (whether it be the abrahamic god or any other form of god) to resolve this.

Nov 26, 2008
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Tenin #83646

i love topics like this! science is a lot more important. (DUH) religion clouds logical judgment, and creates many issues that lead to wars. science is not biased, its either right or wrong.

Why is it always the uncle...

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priincess ?doing fun

Quote: since the premise of 'GOD DOES NOT EXIST' is taken as true.

how it can be true. it's just you havent 'met' yet
science n religion are different, how can we compare them?

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toumarie .:.:Princess:.:.

Quote by fmp111.....and yes this does conflict with the 10 commandments that is what i mean by cherry picking, you chose the commandments over deuteronomy 13:13 because it was the morally right thing to do. The conflict between the commandments and deuteronomy just reveals the internal inconsistency of christianity.

You're wrong about this.. There is no inconsistency of christianity within the Holy Bible..

Deuteronomy 13:13 -- Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

And you should know about the first law of 10 commandments :

Exodus 20:3 -- Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Then you can continue read the Deuteronomy 13:13 until this (13:18) and read the italic words...

Deuteronomy 13:18 -- When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

-------------------------------------------(...)

Science, the older the era/age the more we now its weakness like you've said :

That is the beauty of science, all hypotheses must be verified via experimentation and empirical evidence. It is constantly changing and improving based upon new evidence.

Holy Bible, the older the era/age, what's written inside become reality..

Well because of science or technology, look what happened into our beautiful earth..
Because of science or technology, many people get cured with medicine which actually don't need that kind of thing if we have faith in Jesus Christ but that's fine since many people don't have that kind of faith though they're Christian..
Science can't describe about miracle that happened because someone have faith in God..

As you have said : Religion can be and IS used as very powerful motivation/tool for people to commit acts of evil.

I add, and science help them (this people who used religion to acts of evil) by nuclear, guns, bombs, weapons, drugs..

About war, how about North Korea which killed religious people though they are people of the country? So it's not only religious people can start a war I think..

How science can describe about HIV or AIDS, where it came from? Do you know this?
Have you heard about the milk from China which killed so many babies? Made by scientist and no religion got involved in this case..

Every person can use religion as their motive to wipe out even a nation but don't blame God because of what they did.. Lord God is already said in the Holy Bible after the death of Jesus Christ, He's not the one who whisper into someone's mind to start war..

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Nov 29, 2008
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Let's be honest now... really.

I say "Science".

I believe that there is a god, and I do pray to 'someone' for thanksgiving, for asking help for problems, for guidance... etc. However, science influences so many things in our lives and it is not sufficient only to 'believe' that something will happen; it is better that you go out and prove it to yourself, or better, do it by yourself.

Why?

I believe in a god that does not spoonfeed his (I will use a male figure here) children. He gave us tools, one of which is science, to prosper ourselves; he gives us guidance only when we absolutely need it, when a situation arises that, he knows, we really can't handle at all; he gave us free will, to either believe that he exists or not... it doesn't matter to him. He is a god... what can we ever hope to contribute that is significant enough for him? By offering all our life's work? By giving money every month to a church that you are not even sure if it is indeed helping the 'people in need'? I say, he is a god who wants us to improve our own state and the state of other people's lives, by interacting, by helping, not as members of one religion, but as creations that have to interact with each other.

I didn't get my beliefs from the Bible or whatnot. It is a summary of what I have experienced throughout my life.

Because yes!

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beyondmeasure From the mind comes the query.

Toumarie:

You're wrong about this.. There is no inconsistency of christianity within the Holy Bible..

Read your New Testament, Matthew and Luke, the genealogy of your savior Jesus. Matthew's detail of ancestors from David to Jesus is 24 (if I recall correctly); Luke's (alas!) writes 41, from David to Jesus.

And, worse, there's almost no overlap! Now what?

Then you can continue read the Deuteronomy 13:13 until this (13:18) and read the italic words...

Like killin' innocents and preventin' intermarriage and stonin' adulterers?

RIGHT...

Now you're being incredibly incredulous. So you're sayin' that we should have been ignorant on matters of health and medicine, because Jesus saves? No sir, I am advised to steer clear of you.

Nov 29, 2008
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fmp111

Alright, lets get into it...

to priincess

Quote by priincessscience n religion are different, how can we compare them?

Actually on the most basic level, both science and religion makes claims about the nature of the cosmos....the difference is that science is substantiated by evidence and religion is not.

and saying 'you haven't met god yet' isn't valid. I could say the same thing about unicorns, you just haven't met a unicorn so you cant no it exists....

see the flawed reasoning? To prove the existence of something, there must be evidence.

to toumarie

Quote by toumarie You're wrong about this.. There is no inconsistency of christianity within the Holy Bible..

well ok lets see commandment :"You shall not murder" and the quote i got from deuteronomy before... "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. And though shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. "

your saying that is consistent?

Quote by toumarie Science, the older the era/age the more we now its weakness like you've said :

That is the beauty of science, all hypotheses must be verified via experimentation and empirical evidence. It is constantly changing and improving based upon new evidence.

Holy Bible, the older the era/age, what's written inside become reality..

You have totally missed the point.... What i'm saying is that science is a dynamic system that constantly IMPROVES!

religion just gets an idea( an idea, which i might add, that was formulated in a bronze aged society...) and sticks with it while ignoring or downright dismissing new conflicting evidence..... to make it clear as i can: RELIGION STAGNATES!

Now do tell me how the older religion gets, the 'true-er' it gets? time does not increase the accuracy or reliability of any argument, it is the EVIDENCE presented which fortifies one's assertions. (oh will you look at that, SCIENCE USES EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE).

Quote by toumarieWell because of science or technology, look what happened into our beautiful earth..
Because of science or technology, many people get cured with medicine which actually don't need that kind of thing if we have faith in Jesus Christ but that's fine since many people don't have that kind of faith though they're Christian..
Science can't describe about miracle that happened because someone have faith in God..

Firstly, What has science and technology done? ill tell you what its done: its increased the life span by over 50 years, its brought us together through communications, it feeds us through agricultural processes (eg, the Haber process which sustains about 30% of the entire population of the world), its brought us clean water, electricity, transport, medicine... the list goes on, most importantly it gives us knowledge. Infact, the next time you wake up in the morning, pay attention to every detail of your life throughout the day, notice the complete and utter dependence that the human race has upon technology to sustain us. It is through the use of tools (and hence technology) that we have surpassed other animals, to achieve a level of mastery over our lives that no other organism upon this planet has ever achieved.

Secondly, have a look at my previous posts and see the 'faith healing' consequences...

Thirdly, miracles are coincidences, that's all, there is no supernatural benevolent force out there that wants to help us.

Quote by toumarieAs you have said : Religion can be and IS used as very powerful motivation/tool for people to commit acts of evil.

I add, and science help them (this people who used religion to acts of evil) by nuclear, guns, bombs, weapons, drugs..

Good, at least you understand that religion is a prime motivation of acts of evil. If you could be bothered reading all my previous posts, you will see that i have addressed this argument already. but here is a short summary of it: Science is a tool of humanity, that is all, a tool can be used for both good and evil without any inherent evil within the tool. Religion differes from science because it is a MOTIVATION for the evil deeds that people do; you don't see scientists strapping explosives to themselves and blowing themselves up in the name of electrochemistry now do you?

Quote by toumarieAbout war, how about North Korea which killed religious people though they are people of the country? So it's not only religious people can start a war I think..

I never once said that religion is the ONLY evil of society, though it is a major problem. But the ideology of north korea and religion have a few things in common, irrationality, fanaticism and oppression! Which leads me to the point that the scientific viewpoint is completely different to this! it advocates rationality! which is the important idea that im emphasizing.

Quote by toumarieHow science can describe about HIV or AIDS, where it came from? Do you know this?
Have you heard about the milk from China which killed so many babies? Made by scientist and no religion got involved in this case..

Im completely astounded by the level of scientific ignorance of this....... AIDS(acquired immunodeficiency syndrome) is a disease that is caused by the HIV(Human immunodeficiency virus) in other words, ITS JUST ANOTHER DISEASE CAUSED BY A PATHOGEN! ITS NOT SOME MYSTICAL FORCE!

Secondly, i don't know how you managed to associate contaminated poorly regulated Chinese milk products with the scientific method and rationality....your not making any sense.....

Quote by toumarieEvery person can use religion as their motive to wipe out even a nation but don't blame God because of what they did.. Lord God is already said in the Holy Bible after the death of Jesus Christ, He's not the one who whisper into someone's mind to start war..

....i have already given an example where an individual has used religion (and its god(s)) directly as a motive to violence. again i shall paste it from my first post: ""you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind: You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator."" these are the words of Bin Laden.

to kyubichan

Quote by kyubichan Let's be honest now... really.

I say "Science".

I believe that there is a god, and I do pray to 'someone' for thanksgiving, for asking help for problems, for guidance... etc. However, science influences so many things in our lives and it is not sufficient only to 'believe' that something will happen; it is better that you go out and prove it to yourself, or better, do it by yourself.

Why?

I believe in a god that does not spoonfeed his (I will use a male figure here) children. He gave us tools, one of which is science, to prosper ourselves; he gives us guidance only when we absolutely need it, when a situation arises that, he knows, we really can't handle at all; he gave us free will, to either believe that he exists or not... it doesn't matter to him. He is a god... what can we ever hope to contribute that is significant enough for him? By offering all our life's work? By giving money every month to a church that you are not even sure if it is indeed helping the 'people in need'? I say, he is a god who wants us to improve our own state and the state of other people's lives, by interacting, by helping, not as members of one religion, but as creations that have to interact with each other.

I didn't get my beliefs from the Bible or whatnot. It is a summary of what I have experienced throughout my life.

Hmmmm very interesting, i have much much less of a problem with your interpretation of god compared to the others so far, but im curious, if you embrace the scientific method, how do you reconcile it with your religious beliefs that conflict with science?

You say you dont get your beliefs from the bible, could you please tell me what experiences then have resulted in your religious belief?

to beyondmeasure Oh you beat me to it haha, yes i completely agree and applaud you! :D

Nov 29, 2008
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Quote by fmp111
Hmmmm very interesting, i have much much less of a problem with your interpretation of god compared to the others so far, but im curious, if you embrace the scientific method, how do you reconcile it with your religious beliefs that conflict with science?

You say you dont get your beliefs from the bible, could you please tell me what experiences then have resulted in your religious belief?

One of the most important experiences that I had was when I was 8. My dog died. It might not seem like a big deal now, but back then, my mom was teaching me a lot of stuff about religion (Christianity, to be specific) and I was a little kid who had her first significant encounter with death. I was thinking "if Jesus could raise Lazarus back from the dead, I'm sure that he can bring my dog back to life too". I thought that for weeks and weeks and then I thought... "my dog's still dead... there is no god". Over the years I grew up and more things happened which involved death, and I became quite cold when a person died, but I cried my heart out when I saw a dead animal. Maybe I got traumatized, I don't know.

And then I grew up, not only physically but mentally as well. I realized that instead of not believing in a god, I was actually blaming him for bad things that happened to my life. So I chose to believe that we didn't just come from nothing, that we were created, that someone watches over us and that he isn't pleased at all when we bicker about things that rarely mean anything, such as the afterlife or 'serving him'. I kinda see it as a "worry when you get there" path. He created this life, this universe, this world so that we can enjoy it, and he'll enjoy it with us. He allows things such as religion and science be discovered/created/organized because the conflict that arises can make us grow both as individuals and as a community.

It's like teaching your kid how to ride a bike. If you hold the bike every time it looks like it's going to fall, then your kid won't gain his balance while on the bike. But surely, if he's about to fall, you will be there to catch him.

Because yes!

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ttwen somebody

Quote by beyondmeasure
Read your New Testament, Matthew and Luke, the genealogy of your savior Jesus. Matthew's detail of ancestors from David to Jesus is 24 (if I recall correctly); Luke's (alas!) writes 41, from David to Jesus.

actually it's 28 and 43 if i'm not mistaken. this is a debate topic itself. there are different explanations for this, the more popular ones would be (if i am not mistaken for the popularity):
(1) Matthew skipped a lot of generations
(2) a very complex levirate marriage prolongs the list
(3) Matthew goes through Joseph, while Luke goes through Mary

personally, i do not agree with (3). but since this is a big topic itself, to deeply debate on this, i think i would need knowledge of Greek or Amharic.

Quote:
Like killin' innocents and preventin' intermarriage and stonin' adulterers?

care to be more specific?

Quote by toumarie
Because of science or technology, many people get cured with medicine which actually don't need that kind of thing if we have faith in Jesus Christ but that's fine since many people don't have that kind of faith though they're Christian..

huh? from my personal experience and testimonies, i know that God works through almost anything, from science to gadgets, from fortunes to misfortunes. faith, from what i have learned, is not used when you are in trouble, but from everything you do in life.

Nov 30, 2008
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toumarie .:.:Princess:.:.

Quote by beyondmeasureRead your New Testament, Matthew and Luke, the genealogy of your savior Jesus.
Matthew's detail of ancestors from David to Jesus is 24 (if I recall correctly); Luke's (alas!) writes

41, from David to Jesus.

Matthew and Luke are two different people.

What Matthew and Luke wrote indeed not exactly the same but the main idea is still same, which is Jesus is Son of God.
You want to know other differences?
Read John, Matthew, Mark and Luke when Jesus was nailed on the cross. Only Luke recorded about one of the two criminals turn from their sins and accept Jesus as an innocent man.
Only in John that recorded when Jesus said "I thirst" and "It is done".
Do you understand what I mean?

Now, try to watch a movie together with your friend. After that, both of you write the story about the movie. Then compare your story with your friend's. It won't be exactly same but the main idea from your story and your friend's will be same to each other.

Quote by beyondmeasureLike killin' innocents and preventin' intermarriage and stonin' adulterers?

RIGHT...

The men in Deuteronomy 13:13 was not innocent! He knew the 10 commandments yet he wanted to break it and even deceive people of Israel to follow him! How can you say that he is innocent?

Quote by beyondmeasure

Quote by toumarieWell because of science or technology, look what happened into our beautiful earth..
Because of science or technology, many people get cured with medicine which actually don't need that kind of thing if we have faith in Jesus Christ but that's fine since many people don't have that kind of faith though they're Christian..

Now you're being incredibly incredulous. So you're sayin' that we should have been ignorant on matters of health and medicine, because Jesus saves? No sir, I am advised to steer clear of you.

Sir, look at into our world now, the global warming is caused by what? Science or religion?

Sir, have you read my statement clearly? I said, with technology, many people get cured with medicine and that's fine!

About "actually don't need that kind of thing if we have faith in Jesus Christ" , I've seen them! People who get cured without help from doctors since all the doctor they've met always say the same thing that they (the sick person) don't have any hope, just believe in miracle! They are the witness of how great Jesus Christ is, and they still alive until now and healed.
For some people including me, medicine is not that important! He is as my Creator can heal me!
Medicine, you can say it's important for you and for some people too, I'm not against you or them! If you like, go ahead!
If you believe it can heal or cure you, go ahead! Beside, who said that we should have been ignorant on matters of health? You made this conclusion by your own!

My migraine, it's healed not because medicine but with a single pray!
My leg, it's in the same size again and without the medicine! My right leg used to be smaller than my left leg and doctor couldn't make them cured, they only give me medicine and medicine, I'm tired taking pills everyday! I made decision to stop the pills and let it be, surrender to Jesus. Then He healed me. I don't know how or when, all I know, when I look at it, both my legs have the same size again.

Quote by fmp111well ok lets see commandment :"You shall not murder" and the quote i got from deuteronomy before... "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. And though shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. "
your saying that is consistent?

Consistent!
The first law of 10 commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me". Who told him to disobey the law and the worse he deceived all people of Israel to follow him? They got death punishment from God!
Read Exodus 21:12-36, this can explain for the 6th law, which is "Thou shall not kill".

Quote by fmp111You have totally missed the point.... What i'm saying is that science is a dynamic system that constantly IMPROVES!
religion just gets an idea( an idea, which i might add, that was formulated in a bronze aged society...)
and sticks with it while ignoring or downright dismissing new conflicting evidence..... to make it clear as i can: RELIGION STAGNATES!
Now do tell me how the older religion gets, the 'true-er' it gets? time does not increase the accuracy or reliability of any argument, it is the EVIDENCE presented which fortifies one's assertions. (oh will you look at that, SCIENCE USES EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE).

You can call it improvement, but it actually shows the weakness of the first science before they found the new one!
You can read the Holy Bible, everything happen now is already written inside!

(Matthew 24:4-14) :
1. Many people are claiming himself as Christ
2. Wars, it can caused by both religion and atheism
3. Famines and pestilences, many new decease comes up
4. Earthquake divers places, plus other nature disasters
5. Torture and murder people who believe in Jesus Christ as the One and Only Savior, and for some atheism people, they agree and don't care with this but when a person use religion to kill other people, they angry with other religious people who didn't involve at all and curse the religion especially Christianity
6. Apostate, many believer will become unbeliever in the existence of God
7. False prophets shall rise, many pastors or preachers use Holy Bible wrongly to fulfill their flesh desire
8. The love of many shall wax cold which means criminals arise
9. Gospel shall be preached in all the world

Quote by fmp111Firstly, What has science and technology done? ill tell you what its done: its increased the life span by over 50 years, its brought us together through communications, it feeds us through agricultural processes (eg, the Haber process which sustains about 30% of the entire population of the world), its brought us clean water, electricity, transport, medicine... the list goes on, most importantly it gives us knowledge. Infact, the next time you wake up in the morning, pay attention to every detail of your life throughout the day, notice the complete and utter dependence that the human race has upon technology to sustain us. It is through the use of tools (and hence technology) that we have surpassed other animals, to achieve a level of mastery over our lives that no other organism upon this planet has ever achieved.

Secondly, have a look at my previous posts and see the 'faith healing' consequences...

Thirdly, miracles are coincidences, that's all, there is no supernatural benevolent force out there that wants to help us.

Yeah, look the side effect of technology! Global Warming!
Increased the life span by over 50 years? How many people died before reach 50 years old now?
What is the trigger of cancer decease?
People who is smoking, its smoke can cause so many illness. Who create smoke? It's scientist!
Transport, how many people died on the street?

That kind of "faith healing" consequences didn't happen in my life.

So it is right, science can't describe anything about miracle than only saying it's coincidences!

Quote by fmp111Good, at least you understand that religion is a prime motivation of acts of evil. If you could be bothered reading all my previous posts, you will see that i have addressed this argument already. but here is a short summary of it: Science is a tool of humanity, that is all, a tool can be used for both good and evil without any inherent evil within the tool. Religion differes from science because it is a MOTIVATION for the evil deeds that people do; you don't see scientists strapping explosives to themselves and blowing themselves up in the name of electrochemistry now do you?

Whatever you say.. No matter what, religion and science can be work together to acts of evil or not.. it's all depend on the person..

For example :
Robbers, are they rob a bank because religion or because science? Even though the robbers are people who don't believe in God, they still using technology!
Drugs, are they selling drug because religion or because science? Even though the dealers are people who don't believe in God, they still using science to produce drugs and sell it!

I'm not blaming science on this matters ok? Science is only a tool.
Religion is not a prime motivation of acts of evil! Everyone can acts evil whether he/she is a believer or not!

I wonder, what the main purpose for scientist created a nuclear or bombs?

Quote by fmp111I never once said that religion is the ONLY evil of society, though it is a major problem.
But the ideology of north korea and religion have a few things in common, irrationality, fanaticism and oppression! Which leads me to the point that the scientific viewpoint is completely different to this! it advocates rationality! which is the important idea that im emphasizing.

North Korea, they don't believe in God which means they are atheis people.. China, they (atheis) killed its people who believe in God.. NAZI, I assume you've already knew about this.. and (IMO) you seems agree for atheis people to kill religious people..

Quote by fmp111Im completely astounded by the level of scientific ignorance of this....... AIDS(acquired immunodeficiency syndrome) is a disease that is caused by the HIV(Human immunodeficiency virus) in other words, ITS JUST ANOTHER DISEASE CAUSED BY A PATHOGEN! ITS NOT SOME MYSTICAL FORCE!

Secondly, i don't know how you managed to associate contaminated poorly regulated Chinese milk products with the scientific method and rationality....your not making any sense.....

HIV was caused because disorder sexuality activity. God created man and woman not man and man.

Sir, this milk product was made by scientist and this caused so many babies sick or worse can cause dead!
The scientist did it on purpose and they knew already that the Melamine things is not good for human body especially baby but they still did it! It is not caused by religion!

So, science and religion, they work together. All depend on the person who used both of them.
If the person is bad and using religion as their motive, science help them to fulfill their evil desire!
If the person is bad, even he/she is an atheis, they still can use science to fulfill their evil deeds.
If the person is good, whether he/she is a religious or atheis, they still can use science to do good things, such as save the earth, people, animals, etc.

Quote by ttwenhuh? from my personal experience and testimonies, i know that God works through almost anything, from science to gadgets, from fortunes to misfortunes. faith, from what i have learned, is not used when you are in trouble, but from everything you do in life.

But not so many people have that kind of faith like yours ttwen. Much more people used their faith only when they're in trouble. Look how many people left Jesus because something they don't want to happen but God let it happen in their life?
Ok ttwen, perhaps I didn't put what inside my mind into words correctly, sorry people. I'm not against science or technology to cure people ok?

Not many people have this kind of faith either, read below.
One of my mom's sister, she got cured from her breast cancer which is very very dangerous, it's already too big. Science perhaps can heal her sickness but it'll take time, money and the chance of success only under 20%, well it's based on her situation that time oke? She was afraid until she decided to attend to church one day.She share her story that she got challenge to give mercy for her husband who always hurt her physically and mentally also left her and their young children with other woman.
After she decided to forgive them (both her husband and that woman), God heal her without single operation done by medics, not even the medicine. She got this kind of faith to get cured.
Not so many people have this kind of faith, right? So if you believe medics and medicine can cure your
sickness, it's fine, go through it and get heal. It's not something wrong doing.

merged: 11-30-2008 ~ 02:27pm
to fmp111 :

Look sir, I'm not against science. I appreciate science, it's only a tool just like you've said. It's all depend to the person whether to use is with good purpose or not. Atheism can start a war too so don't blame everything bad into religion.

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Quote by toumarie
China, they (atheis) killed its people who believe in God..

Whut?

*facepalm*

There was a time when the Japanese and the Chinese killed CHRISTIANS within their countries because they believed in a different god. Those countries have their own religions/beliefs which conflicted with Christianity, thus the killings. It's no different from the Israelites killing Gentiles and Palestines because they didn't believe in the same god.

I just wanted to point that out.

They weren't atheists. Now if you're going to go as far as say that anyone who does not believe in your Christian god is an atheist, oh dear...

Because yes!

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religon is more important

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toumarie .:.:Princess:.:.

To kyubichan : For China, its government is officially atheist. State atheism has been mostly implemented in communist country. Well, that's what I got from History class during school.

Buddhism is both a major world religion and a philosophy; it is based on the teachings of the Buddha, Siddh?rtha Gautama, a prince of the Shakyas, who lived in or around the fifth century BC. The teachings spread from their roots in India to most of Asia, including China and Japan.

In recent times, the government has expressed support for Buddhism and Taoism, organizing the World Buddhist Forum in 2006 and the International Forum on the Daodejing in 2007. The government sees these religions as an integral part of Chinese culture.

Quote by kyubichanNow if you're going to go as far as say that anyone who does not believe in your Christian god is an atheist, oh dear...

See my explanation above why I wrote first that Chinese used to be an atheist.
And North Korea indeed atheist also I'm not including Japanese in this matter, so I did not state that anyone who does not believe in my God is an atheist. Is that clear to you now?

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What you're saying applies to recent years. Has the Chinese government killed religious people within the last fifty years?

Before, they did kill Christians, and that was because they viewed Christianity as heresy to their Emperor, because to them, their Emperor was their God (their emperors were said to be descendants of gods, etc.) This only applied to ancient China, or at least older China (about a hundred years ago).

Yeah, I understand the atheist comment though that only applies to the recent Chinese government (the communist one). If you can't bring up any verified news articles about the recent Chinese government having killed 'its people who believe in God', then your earlier comment was uncalled for since ancient China is not the same as modern China when it comes to that matter.

Because yes!

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toumarie .:.:Princess:.:.

Hmm... I'm wrong use tenses, sorry sir..

What I want to point out here, it is not I blame China for killing its religious people, but don't blame everything bad to religion.. Eerr..should I write again what I wrote above... =__=''

Science and religion, they work together. All depend on the person who used both of them.
If the person is bad and using religion as their motive, science help them to fulfill their evil desire!
If the person is bad, even he/she is an atheist, they still can use science to fulfill their evil deeds.
If the person is good, whether he/she is a religious or atheist, they still can use science to do good things, such as save the earth, people, animals, etc.

It's all depend to the person itself..

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honoonotobira

Recently or not, history is still a fact.

A fact that Christian people got killed by Atheist people. But no one in this thread point that out, they only blame religion blindly.
If you like science than religion, just point out why you like science only. Why should you point out why you dislike religion and even make fun of it?

merged: 12-01-2008 ~ 08:45am
I'm not saying about China oke?

Dec 01, 2008
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kyubichan Mobile Blackhole

@toumarie

Yuh I understand what you meant. Just wanted to poke that thing about China since it might cause misunderstandings for those who will read this topic.

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Christians got killed by atheists.
Atheists got killed by Christians.
Christians got killed by people who believed in the same god (Yahweh) but shared a different view, and vice versa.
Atheists got killed by atheists.

Same thing, right? It all goes around in a vicious circle. I think what some atheist people point out though is that religion can be very hypocritical: it teaches its followers to 'love one another', but then its leaders do something that goes the exact opposite way. It's the people that are flawed, and their interpretations... it causes conflict, even within their religion.

As for science: What is it... it's just science. It doesn't make a promise to give a good life, or to make people love one another. It's just a study of things and an attempt to explain everything that goes around us. Unlike religion, which promises a whole lot of things that unfortunately, do not always come true.

----------------

About religion:

I find it intriguing though that Muslims in our area don't try to impose their religion upon me, but a dozen or so different Christian churches ask for 'contributions' from me almost every day, even if I am not a member of their church, without even trying to invite me into their church.

It's just an observation about religion... I understand that not all churches are like that (the one that I technically belong to doesn't work that way, although it is 'Christian').

Because yes!

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ttwen somebody

@kyubichan:

for your information, China today, although they don't execute anymore, they will revoke your visa if you are a foreigner preaching in China, and for their own people, they lock 'em up. there are still religious persecutions happening, like currently, India(a more obvious one). many countries today are against conversion, for example, Iran rolls out laws to punish severely(or execute, i can't remember) of those who desert Islam. while most Christians today, have this 'if you want to leave God for other God, then you are free to do so,' stance. so that is why there are so many new conversions, and deserters for Christianity.

and i want to point out too, in the past, the atheist are no difference than those who condemn/persecute Christians. a good example would be during the French Revolution. they pillaged and closed churches, sold church properties, they removed street names of saints, destroys religious things, such as crosses, statues, etc. forced clergies to marry, institute cults, the more famous one, as cult of reason, where they choose(during festivals) a pretty girl who would be the "goddess of reason" to dance with bare breast, and many more acts of dechristianisation. of course today, they don't do such horrible and uncivilized things, but they(the fanatics) still do acts of insults to religion, especially Christianity.

Dec 01, 2008
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kyubichan Mobile Blackhole

Quote by ttwen@kyubichan:

for your information, China today, although they don't execute anymore, they will revoke your visa if you are a foreigner preaching in China, and for their own people, they lock 'em up.

That's because they're a communist state...

A country can revoke a visa for whatever they want, not just for religion.

I poked that comment about China because it was such a short comment that could cause a lot of misunderstandings. You know how people are today: "omg don't go to China, they'll kill you because they're atheists!" I'm serious, that can happen. Just with the melamine issue, almost everything that came from China, or has "Chinese-looking symbols" (items from Japan, Thailand, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore) are being avoided locally because people stupidly think that they're all Chinese items, and all Chinese items can kill you.

Now, I am not Chinese, and I am definitely not up for communism, but I think we should avoid whatever misunderstanding if we can since that's what causes conflict.

---------

And did anyone point out yet that most if not ALL 'Christian' celebrations are merely pagan celebrations covered up with a name of a saint/holy person? One good example is "Christmas". It was made to cover up the Winter Solstice festival, which was in honor of the pagan goddess Semiramis, and her son Nimrod.

Because yes!

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ttwen somebody

^yes, but they do watch foreigners/NGOs closely, mostly because of their atheist stance. China would get into a lot of trouble if they dare to execute. no misunderstanding on me, just some information. and as a Chinese, i admit that many Chinese are business oriented...

as for Christmas, nobody knew when Christ was really born actually, all we know is He was born in December, and around the end of the month.

Dec 01, 2008
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kyubichan Mobile Blackhole

Time causes the seasons to change though. The 'end of the year' 2,000 years ago would have been quite different compared to now, especially since there was a switch to the Gregorian calendar.

------

Okay! Back to the topic... carry on, everyone else.

Because yes!

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beyondmeasure From the mind comes the query.

personally, i do not agree with (3). but since this is a big topic itself, to deeply debate on this, i think i would need knowledge of Greek or Amharic.

... which goes a long way to sayin' that the Bible isn't correct in everything... especially ruminatin' on the need of Jesus to be linked to Joseph while insinuatin' that he was born of a virgin...

care to be more specific?

If I could find mine Bible, that is. For now, I'm relyin' on mine memory - on the prevention of intermarriage, read Nehemiah.

Matthew and Luke are two different people.

I give you credit - you are perfectly right to state that (in essence, that Matthew and Luke may have seen different things, which led them to different genealogies). However, here's a query: why insist on a kingly lineage (through Joseph) if he was born of a virgin?

The men in Deuteronomy 13:13 was not innocent! He knew the 10 commandments yet he wanted to break it and even deceive people of Israel to follow him! How can you say that he is innocent?

... and where is it insinuated that he knew such, and even intended to "deceive"? Please, read your Scriptures.

merged: 12-01-2008 ~ 11:32am
Sir, look at into our world now, the global warming is caused by what? Science or religion?

Sir, have you read my statement clearly? I said, with technology, many people get cured with medicine and that's fine!

The misuse of what science has given us. So? Are we into chalkboards now, tallyin' which has done more damage (which religion has done more anyway)?

About this bein' cured by Jesus, consider these possibilties:

1. The placebo effect - just say "I'm cured!" or be touched by a bloody televangelist and you're cured, which isn't necessarily the work of God. And there's an aftereffect - the disease goes back to kill you.

2. They were lying.

3. Whatever disease this person might have had cleared up by itself. It's common.

4. It was indeed a deity's work - but whose deity (I vote on The Flyin' Spaghetti Monster).

merged: 12-01-2008 ~ 11:37am
And on this atheist mass murderers thingy:

Yes, they are atheists - Mao and Stalin (not Hitler - he's actually a Catholic, from mine sources). But the real query is: did they do such atrocities out of nonbelief? Or did they do these things out of some obssessively held dogma?

Methinks the second is more probable.

Dec 01, 2008
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fmp111

Wow! massive rise in post numbers :)

Alright, seems like the recent debate is focused upon times when people kill others for purely 'atheist' reasons.

i would like to point out that this is not the case. All examples that were given show that atheism(that is the non belief in gods etc) was not the motivating ideology here. The prime motivating cases in such examples was fanatical POLITICAL ideology etc.

And i have contrasted this with certain conflicts in which religion was a prime motivator.

to toumarie

Quote by toumarieConsistent!
The first law of 10 commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me". Who told him to disobey the law and the worse he deceived all people of Israel to follow him? They got death punishment from God!
Read Exodus 21:12-36, this can explain for the 6th law, which is "Thou shall not kill".

right...so the whole 'killing others because they worship other gods' is definitely not consistent clearly because of 'thou shall not kill', its a glaaaaring inconsistency and i have no idea how you managed to overlook that even in the same sentence.....

Quote by toumarie Sir, look at into our world now, the global warming is caused by what? Science or religion?

Sir, have you read my statement clearly? I said, with technology, many people get cured with medicine and that's fine!

About "actually don't need that kind of thing if we have faith in Jesus Christ" , I've seen them! People who get cured without help from doctors since all the doctor they've met always say the same thing that they (the sick person) don't have any hope, just believe in miracle! They are the witness of how great Jesus Christ is, and they still alive until now and healed.
For some people including me, medicine is not that important! He is as my Creator can heal me!
Medicine, you can say it's important for you and for some people too, I'm not against you or them! If you like, go ahead!
If you believe it can heal or cure you, go ahead! Beside, who said that we should have been ignorant on matters of health? You made this conclusion by your own!

My migraine, it's healed not because medicine but with a single pray!
My leg, it's in the same size again and without the medicine! My right leg used to be smaller than my left leg and doctor couldn't make them cured, they only give me medicine and medicine, I'm tired taking pills everyday! I made decision to stop the pills and let it be, surrender to Jesus. Then He healed me. I don't know how or when, all I know, when I look at it, both my legs have the same size again....You can call it improvement, but it actually shows the weakness of the first science before they found the new one!

Firstly, again let me reiterate that it isn't i who only claims that its 'improvement' that's basically how the scientific method works, and you claiming that this re-evaluation of knowledge is a flaw clearly demonstrates your lack of
understanding of the most fundamental of scientific principles... you see the thing is, what you call 'old science' is merely our understanding of the world we had back then based upon available evidence. What you call 'new science' is what we now know due to new evidence. But neither of these are SCIENCE.

The actual science is the process of RE-EVALUATION of current theories when new evidence presents itself, it is the process of experimentation in which empirical evidence is obtained to facilitate the above!

Secondly, your evidence for the power of prayer is not valid as it is anecdotal. it was not a CONTROLLED experiment where variables were considered. Furthermore your 'healing' would have either happen on its own without prayer due to normal recovery processes OR it is just the placebo effect. Either way there is no empirical evidence to verify faith healing. And in account of its consequences (see the faith healing deaths information that i posted a few posts back) it is definitely not the way to go.

Quote by toumarie Yeah, look the side effect of technology! Global Warming!
Increased the life span by over 50 years? How many people died before reach 50 years old now?
What is the trigger of cancer decease?
People who is smoking, its smoke can cause so many illness. Who create smoke? It's scientist!
Transport, how many people died on the street?

That kind of "faith healing" consequences didn't happen in my life.

So it is right, science can't describe anything about miracle than only saying it's coincidences!
..... HIV was caused because disorder sexuality activity. God created man and woman not man and man.

Sir, this milk product was made by scientist and this caused so many babies sick or worse can cause dead!
The scientist did it on purpose and they knew already that the Melamine things is not good for human body especially baby but they still did it! It is not caused by religion!

....please do some research upon the topics you post, the utter ignorance of scientific knowledge is astounding....
Global warming was caused because we did not fully understand the consequences of greenhouse emissions etc, now that we do know, we are taking steps to reduce it!

The life span of homo sapiens has dramatically increased! From the upper paleolithic era the average lifespan was about 30 years old, now days the average lifespan ranges from about 60 all the way up to 80 years old depending upon the level of development of the country. that is a VERY large increase.

What is the trigger of cancer? Cancer(generally) itself is caused by the mutation of cellular DNA causing rapid uncontrollable mitosis..Its trigger? both genetic and lifestyle. Certain people have a genetic predisposition to developing cancer (which by the way, science has allowed the development of technology to identify this predisposition and thus allow cancer onset to be prevented or treated early), environmental mutagens can all so cause damage to DNA.

Another factor is that as life span increases, risk of cancer increases (due to prolonged lifestyle factors and general higher probability of genetic mutation). So its not that cancer is getting worse and worse, its that people are living long enough to have a higher risk of developing the disease.

How cancer has anything to do with the scientific method i do not know.

On to AIDS...actually its not born of sexual deviance and certainly not homosexuality. The most probable hypothesis of the origin of the disease is hypothesised to be traced back to wild apes (and those who hunt them). It is thought that the hunters may have been bitten by the wild apes or at least has had some sort of contact with its bodily fluids and as of consequence, the transmission of the pathogen.

Thinking that homosexuality is the origin of the disease is just plain ignorant.

On to the melamine, melamine itself is NOT meant to be used as a food additive.It is used for industrial purposes in the production of polymers (amongst other uses). The melamine contamination of milk in china has nothing at all to do with science and everything to do with the poor regulation etc of chinese products.

Quote by toumarie Whatever you say.. No matter what, religion and science can be work together to acts of evil or not.. it's all depend on the person..

For example :
Robbers, are they rob a bank because religion or because science? Even though the robbers are people who don't believe in God, they still using technology!
Drugs, are they selling drug because religion or because science? Even though the dealers are people who don't believe in God, they still using science to produce drugs and sell it!

I'm not blaming science on this matters ok? Science is only a tool.
Religion is not a prime motivation of acts of evil! Everyone can acts evil whether he/she is a believer or not!

I wonder, what the main purpose for scientist created a nuclear or bombs?

True it is the person that acts, but many people draw upon religious motivations for evil. No sane person can draw upon science as motivation for violence.

Robbers don't rob banks because science motivates them. the islamic terrorists of 9/11 blew themselves up because religion motivated them!

People who sell drugs don't do so in the name of science(and for this one i doubt the do it in the name of religion either).

I agree upon one thing, science is a tool. BUT the motivation to misuse the tool lies in greed, hate, and amongst others religion!

The nuclear bombs themselves were only used with the motivation of political ideology!

You never will see a scientist drop a nuclear bomb on a city in the name of astrophysics! Science does not motivate people to kill. Religion sometimes does!

Quote by toumarieIf the person is bad and using religion as their motive, science help them to fulfill their evil desire!

Very true, but religion can also cause good people to do evil! If a person believes that it is divine word from the deity they worship, that they must strap explosives to themselves and blow themselves up, then they will do it out of sheer obedience to that deity.

Religion DISTORTS our sense of right and wrong, faith DISTORTS our reasoning, this is why good religious people can do evil things.

Hitler(while not entirely motivated by religion) for example, believed he was doing good in his genocidal insanity!

Quote by toumarieLook sir, I'm not against science. I appreciate science, it's only a tool just like you've said. It's all depend to the person whether to use is with good purpose or not. Atheism can start a war too so don't blame everything bad into religion.

firstly i doubt you appreciate science, not on the grounds that you are insincere, but on the grounds that you do not have a firm grasp of what science actually is.

Secondly, i don't blame everything on religion, there is still political motivation, racial motivation and just downright greed and hate etc. Saying that, i do believe that religion (and especially faith) is a major root of evil in society(however subtle the psychological conditioning may be).

Finally, Athiesm alone does not start wars. Athiesim is just the disbelief in a diety or deities. Thats it. Nothing else. It is just 'I do not believe'!

People do not start wars because they don't believe in god.

Dec 01, 2008
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