now ill be force to find cd's in my town..
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member of Oishi Nihon, Kasumi-chan and Ecchi-Club- Jun 12, 2004
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regardless of the berne convention...
this is not even classified as part of it
its more about copyright issues, more about mediaworks and cyberlaw
besides, it is stated in the anime itself, stop distrubuting this anime if its licensed.and also, take note, what if ppl record anime in the VCR, is that wrong? is downloading an episode of charm wrong? is storing stuffs on a HDTV recording wrong? technology are getting better and better, its hard to stop ppl from doing what they want to.
if they start to be this linient, they will lose a form of customers
look at this forum thread, it has almost the similar argument
http://animes.co.nr | http://ecchi.us | http://girlsbravo.com
http://lowyat.net | http://minitokyo.net | http://raveanime.com- Jun 12, 2004
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Quote by fallen angel
I'm not sure if you know this but the prices for anime in Japan are nearly double what we pay here and they only have about half the episode count that their american counterparts have. Some people in Japan actually import anime from us because it's cheaper.Actually, the reason for that would be availability of resources to make cds/dvds. Japan has very few natural resources of their own and must import just about everything when it comes to industry. So the prices of the DVDs and CDs reflect this. They aren't high because they're being mean or trying to be greedy, they're high because the cost of manufacture is considerably higher than it is here.
Quote by Kevregardless of the berne convention...
[snipity snip snip]
and also, take note, what if ppl record anime in the VCR, is that wrong? is downloading an episode of charm wrong? is storing stuffs on a HDTV recording wrong? technology are getting better and better, its hard to stop ppl from doing what they want to.
[snip snip]
The problem with this argument is that online or off, these things still fall under copyright/IP laws, conventions, and treaties. "Cyberlaw" does not exist. As for the examples you give, you haven't been keeping up with your slashdot reading. The media companies are fighting just about all of those things tooth and nail. They particularly hate PVRs because they allow people [for now, and sometimes with tinkering] to share episodes on the internet - something the media companies find wrong, evil, baaaaaad. When the VCR first came out, hollywood was shocked and angered - these people were going to be able to tape movies off the tv! It was wrong! Video sales would plummet! DOOOOM! But...it didn't. It took years of arguing, fighting, lobbying, etc to allow VCRs to stay. We're going through the whole thing again now, only with digital products with a much broader scope of use and misuse.
Also, the disclaimer most subbers put on the shows doesn't really hold water. It's a nicety that they put to stave off the nicer of companies. But in all reality, it does nothing. So your argument is going to have to be a bit stronger.
my guy: my life would be complete with rapid weight loss and larger breasts.
me: boobs on a stick! boobs on a stick!- Jun 12, 2004
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Quote by Kevregardless of the berne convention...
this is not even classified as part of it
its more about copyright issues, more about mediaworks and cyberlaw
besides, it is stated in the anime itself, stop distrubuting this anime if its licensed.Article 9 of the Berne Convention
(1) Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall have the exclusive right of authorizing the reproduction of these works, in any manner or form.
(2) It shall be a matter for legislation in the countries of the Union to permit the reproduction of such works in certain special cases, provided that such reproduction does not conflict with a normal exploitation of the work and does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate interests of the author.
(3) Any sound or visual recording shall be considered as a reproduction for the purposes of this Convention.
- Jun 13, 2004
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1st off, we are not reproducing it, we are simply adding subtitles to it, thats a bout it
2nd, this is not enough to cover a bunch of ranting ppl, lol.. u think ppl would get sued under this berne convention, where no one has ever heard of it? most ppl would be sued under copyright laws instead. also, we are the consumers, not the distributors, so it does not get us in trouble under that legislation, only subbers and torrent distros get charged that way
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http://lowyat.net | http://minitokyo.net | http://raveanime.com- Jun 13, 2004
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Quote by Kev1st off, we are not reproducing it, we are simply adding subtitles to it, thats a bout it
Putting it up, available for download to the masses is reproducing it. Your computer copies the information and send it to other computers.
Quote by Kev2nd, this is not enough to cover a bunch of ranting ppl, lol.. u think ppl would get sued under this berne convention, where no one has ever heard of it? most ppl would be sued under copyright laws instead. also, we are the consumers, not the distributors, so it does not get us in trouble under that legislation, only subbers and torrent distros get charged that way
You are in possiton of pirated copies. That is ilegel and can be prosecuted. Look at the RIAA and music sharing. The downloaders were sued.
- Jun 13, 2004
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we are merely downloaders, bit torrent just helps redistribute it.
not everyone is smart in computing, we can plea ignorance about itRIAA is the recording industry, not videos, hence it has no relevance it. if they were to sue us for downloading copyrightable media, be it, lets see how long the anime industry will suffer
besides, RIAA's authority is limited to USA, not other places outside of it. every country has its own policy and rules
according to economy, without supply, there will be no demand, so, if u halt ppl from downloading anime, most of them would rather switch to watch other english stuffs
(btw, good argument, just keep it clean and no flaming)
http://animes.co.nr | http://ecchi.us | http://girlsbravo.com
http://lowyat.net | http://minitokyo.net | http://raveanime.com- Jun 13, 2004
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raging_otter
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Quote by Nitro_2985
Putting it up, available for download to the masses is reproducing it. Your computer copies the information and send it to other computers.
Quote by Nitro_2985
You are in possiton of pirated copies. That is ilegel and can be prosecuted. Look at the RIAA and music sharing. The downloaders were sued.
you know actually sharing files is a "gray" area of the law.... heres my reasonings:- Sharing files is legal because: take a tv show say "Friends"... lets say you record the show on tv, then you lend the recorded video to your relative/friends, and they copy the video also... now is that illegal? of course not! if that is illegal then im sure almost every1 should be prosecuted already.
Its the same thing as the anime... ppl in Japan watch it on TV, record it, then share it with friends thru the internet....- Now its Illegal when: some companies have licensed the tv shows "Friends", and sells its dvds .... now if some guys rip the dvds then share it on the internet, that is illegal....
so is downloading animes illegal? that depends on whether its from a tv rip or dvd rip am i rite? most animes we dl and watch are from tv rip...- Jun 13, 2004
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very true to that, raging otter, else the whole government can confiscate our VCRs and those loyal voters would vote another person to be their leader, hahah
its all interelated, if companies only think of increasing profits, they lose customers
if ppl are not forced to buy anime dvds, ppl will buy emm naturally, and when they feel confident with their stuff, they buy moreproblem is, adv has a bunch of lousy translators, even fansubbers can sub better, this is due to the fact, they put in lesser effort than the fansubbers.
fansubbers face indirect competition from other groups, while adv practically monopolise the whole anime arena. they can do whatever they want to cut costs
so, fansubbers are more dedicated, bcos they have a goal, which is fan satisfaction. unlike adv, its all about profit, nothing than that. theres no true fanspirit in them, at all
so, they are doing the least care to the anime community, they are just socially obliged to do so
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http://lowyat.net | http://minitokyo.net | http://raveanime.com- Jun 13, 2004
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Quote by Kevwe are merely downloaders, bit torrent just helps redistribute it.
not everyone is smart in computing, we can plea ignorance about it
So if your just bought hong kong pirated DVD's, you would also be safe from any litagation? It's a lot like counterfit bills, even if you didn't make it, if you use one you can be charged.
Quote by KevRIAA is the recording industry, not videos, hence it has no relevance it.
I was only pointing out a similar situation that involved artists work being pirated and the end users being punished. An analogy
Quote by Kevif they were to sue us for downloading copyrightable media, be it, lets see how long the anime industry will suffer
Again if I may, i'd like to use an analogy. Before file sharing became so popular the music industry was actually doing better. Their sales have declined signicantly since then.
Quote by Kevbesides, RIAA's authority is limited to USA, not other places outside of it. every country has its own policy and rules
While it is true that each country has it's own rules. Any country that signed the Berne Convention get's its rights. Those rights include the ability to sue a person in another country (assuming that the country also signed the convention) for making ilegal copies.
Quote by Kevaccording to economy, without supply, there will be no demand, so, if u halt ppl from downloading anime, most of them would rather switch to watch other english stuffs
I disagree, they will be forced to either purchase it in order to watch it or they will just not buy it. It's not likly that the people who don't buy anime but only download it will start purchasing (due to ideological reasons.) However the casual downloaders will be willing to put out he cash in order buy their favorite anime since they have shown that they were willing to to that even when the anime was available free. Those people will buy even more since they won't have the capibilty of downloaing it.
Quote by Kev(btw, good argument, just keep it clean and no flaming)
I agree, it's nice to have a friendly debate for a change. :)
I must go to bed now for I have work tommorow. Ta ta!
- Jun 13, 2004
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if ppl are forced to buy anime dvds, internet ISPs will lose their profit.
say like $50 is the montly payment of an anime, some ppl would put their money on anime instead of anime.with losing customers, they would rather ignore the RIAA, and pursue their own economic interests. so, in the end, ISPs will not cooperate with the RIAA, they have to survive, by keeping customers happy. unless, its made into a law that, no one can download anime, by the federal government, ISPs will not cooperate with the media companies.
also, they are obliged to give out private informations about the internet service subsrciber. customers can file against ISP about them exposing their private info. hence, its not really viable that it will come to an end, for anime downloading
btw, hong kong dvds are major rips. they take out anime dvds from japan, and sell them with almost identical cover. they are making profit out of a simple piece of source. buying HK DVDs has its pros and cons.
if one day, anime downloading stops, ppl might buy more HK DVDs. lets see how ADV has to deal with the entire asian economy. most asians do not even own original stuffs. IMHO, i was from asia, i know
http://animes.co.nr | http://ecchi.us | http://girlsbravo.com
http://lowyat.net | http://minitokyo.net | http://raveanime.com- Jun 13, 2004
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Not quite in bed yet. <_<
Quote by Kevif one day, anime downloading stops, ppl might buy more HK DVDs. lets see how ADV has to deal with the entire asian economy. most asians do not even own original stuffs. IMHO, i was from asia, i know
They would be able to sue just as easily since Hong Kong is part of China and China has signed the Berne Convention.
- Jun 13, 2004
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lol, go to bed already
lets see, will china give out its economy like that? u think china is able to maintain its economy, without them having a source of profit that can feed the locals?
and what incentive will china get, if they want to comply? china despise the western culture the most, ever since its colonial days from all the 8 nations that came, mainly the british, french, russian and others
http://animes.co.nr | http://ecchi.us | http://girlsbravo.com
http://lowyat.net | http://minitokyo.net | http://raveanime.com- Jun 13, 2004
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raging_otter
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u guys should really sleep already :)
continue the war tomorrow hahahah
me back to study
benkyo benkyo!
- Jun 13, 2004
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SpideI2_man
awesomesauce
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The fact of the matter is that no matter what they do the ADV and all other liscensing people are just shooting themselves in the foot. They are showing that they cannot compete in a open free for all market. The purpose of ADV was to bring anime to the worldwide (america the main focus of course) market so it could become a sort of mainstream thing. The fansubs are doing a much better job of it I think.
Unless ADV learns something from the ipod they will never win and not only that but exist in an evil light to a significant portion of the anime community like it appears to be here at MT. The ipod is a product that will survive piracy, people don't mind paying for the itune songs and whatnot. They aren't super expensive because they don't need to be (anime shouldnt be that much either). If it were true people would always choose the free product over paying. The ipod disproves it, people consistently buy the player and pay for music because ipod does a good job with it. People could easily just go online and download the songs but the convience of the itunes makes it so that people choose to pay.Anime could do the same thing it really could. whether it does or not depends on how much pride and how stubborn the adv and other groups are.
you can't fight human nature...SpiDeY
btw I like this forum its great.
- Jun 13, 2004
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Quote by Kevvery true to that, raging otter, else the whole government can confiscate our VCRs and those loyal voters would vote another person to be their leader, hahah
Erm, Kev, did you even READ my post? the motion picture industry -would- have and tried to "confiscate our VCRs." It took alot of fighting and arguing and ranting to get VCRs to stick around, because of the EXACT same argument we having going here: we feel it's out right to reproduce (and in legal terms, we ARE reproducing) copyrighted media, while the media industry feels that we have no rights except to sit there and consume passively what they give us. The fact of the matter is, reproducing the way we are is considered illegal. No, not everyone's prosecuted for it: if they were, nearly all of America would be in jail. The copyright holders pick and choose their battles. Just because it's massively done, doesn't mean it's not illegal. Think MP3s of popular, copyrighted music.Quote by Kev
problem is, adv has a bunch of lousy translators, even fansubbers can sub better, this is due to the fact, they put in lesser effort than the fansubbers.fansubbers face indirect competition from other groups, while adv practically monopolise the whole anime arena. they can do whatever they want to cut costs
so, fansubbers are more dedicated, bcos they have a goal, which is fan satisfaction. unlike adv, its all about profit, nothing than that. theres no true fanspirit in them, at all
so, they are doing the least care to the anime community, they are just socially obliged to do so
While an interesting point, irrelevant to the argument.
Quote by Kev RIAA is the recording industry, not videos, hence it has no relevance it. if they were to sue us for downloading copyrightable media, be it, lets see how long the anime industry will suffer
besides, RIAA's authority is limited to USA, not other places outside of it. every country has its own policy and rules
He wasn't saying the RIAA itself would come down on us like a 10-ton hammer, he was merely using it as an example of what the companies who own the rights to the anime could do to us. No, the RIAA isn't going to tag us. But they did tag their own customers, and tagged them hard. Same could [albeit, unlikely] happen in our situation. This is called a "demostrative example." ;)
Quote by Kev1st off, we are not reproducing it, we are simply adding subtitles to it, thats a bout it
That's what ADV's doing. The only thing different is the venue of distribution/reproduction. ADV uses their computers, then DVD and VHS. We use our computers and sometimes CDs/DVDs. It's the same.Quote by Kev
2nd, this is not enough to cover a bunch of ranting ppl, lol.. u think ppl would get sued under this berne convention, where no one has ever heard of it? most ppl would be sued under copyright laws instead. also, we are the consumers, not the distributors, so it does not get us in trouble under that legislation, only subbers and torrent distros get charged that way
EDIT: Yeah, so totally quoted but missed writing my argument @_@ Do you think the Berne convention has nothing to do with copyright? We -would- be sued under copyright laws..........laws that bow to the Berne convention. Whatever you call it, it's the same thing. Oh, and if you think you can't be charged under a law if you've never heard of it, ask a lawyer about it, telling them that opinion. When they're done laughing, they'll explain many cases in which "ignorance does not mean you aren't responsible" for following the law.
If we are using bittorrent to download files, we are both consumers AND distributors, because of how bt works. Just like filesharers in our most favoritest example, we can be charged just as easily as the subbers and distro-ers.Quote by Nitro_2985
Again if I may, i'd like to use an analogy. Before file sharing became so popular the music industry was actually doing better. Their sales have declined signicantly since then.
That's not technically true. A number of studies/research have been done on this, and while the ones done by the RIAA and it's friends have wept and moaned about loss of sales, those done by independent parties have found a completely different story, including a good reason for some drop in sales: They're just not producing as many new albums as they used to, but are expecting the same number of cds to sell. But this isn't an argument for this thread, so I'll stop there. @_@
SpideI2_man: I appreciate your well presented argument =) But I have to dissent: I don't think an iTunes model for distribution would work well for anime. There are a multitude of reasons, ranging from the sheer bandwidth and encoding to the medium itself - it's fairly easy to get pay-for-it quality in music, much harder when there's an image involved. Your ear won't pick up minor discrepancies, but your eyes are very likely to. That aside, I'd much rather have a DVD, for several reasons: I can take it over to a friend's place and forcibly subject them to the show of my choosing, because they can't claim incompatability [which can happen with computer-related formats] - I know they have a DVD player; I can use the case to assail someone who says something stupid; I can watch a DVD on my computer, TV, on a friend's mini-DVD player, or I can simply sit and stare at the pretty colors the "shiney" side makes when turned in the sun. ^_~
my guy: my life would be complete with rapid weight loss and larger breasts.
me: boobs on a stick! boobs on a stick!- Jun 13, 2004
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oh boy, lol
i want to go assasinate the head of ADV now, he doesnt show true fandom support for anime
thing is, if u send everyone in jail, others would vote for a new congressman to represent them. do u think someone would wanna lost votes to this years USA election? lol.
http://animes.co.nr | http://ecchi.us | http://girlsbravo.com
http://lowyat.net | http://minitokyo.net | http://raveanime.com- Jun 13, 2004
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Quote by Kev
thing is, if u send everyone in jail, others would vote for a new congressman to represent them. do u think someone would wanna lost votes to this years USA election? lol.
It's not so much to do with congressmen as you'd think. It's special interest groups, if you want to get right down to it. It's just for logistic reasons that the RIAA/MPAA/enter-group-here don't sue everyone and throw them in jail: Who would handle all that paperwork, and who would babysit all those now-parentless kids? =P In all reality, it wouldn't make sense to throw everyone in jail.
And don't think that our opinion, even in votes, matters much when we're up against such strong special-interest groups as the RIAA/MPAA and their little underlings...er..."associations". You might notice that all these "anti-piracy" things are horribly unpopular, but yet...the PIRATE act is still being pushed through. The passage, of course, lined with $100 bills to make movement easier.
my guy: my life would be complete with rapid weight loss and larger breasts.
me: boobs on a stick! boobs on a stick!- Jun 13, 2004
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Wow I was taking notes to quote but ... too much >_< so better write without quotting ;)
About berne convention, I think most of the world's countries sign them. However, I wouldn't lie if I said no one was ever even near getting any problem with that all around the world. Each country already have their own problems with local licenses, let alone trying to control all material that is ever licensed on any country. Berne convention is only a paper and will always be ;)
That does not remove any guilty from downloading fansubbed anime, but that will be very suitable to my point: I dare anyone here to say that never downloaded or even bought anything that was nearly illegal. mp3, anime video, even AMV are illegal since they do use music and video from copyrighted material. Even the scans and wallpapers we browse here are illegal at the light of berne convention. If one were to submit to all copyrights, you better stop even accessing the internet. So let's not be hipocrital and bring out berne convention mambo-jambo because you know that's beyond the point here.
I would, however, like to quote one thing which got my attention:
Quote: Again if I may, i'd like to use an analogy. Before file sharing became so popular the music industry was actually doing better. Their sales have declined signicantly since then.
That's probably the biggest mistake one can make. The global economy have been suffering a lot latelly, and you cannot blaim filesharing for music indistry decline. I always bought my CDs, but some 8 years ago I had to start selecting, and by some 3 years ago I had to buy only what I really liked. Guess how I can tell what I like or dislike without buying them all? Economy all around the world is in chaos, even Japan, specially after 11-9, now we see some recovery, but any economist will agree that economy 10 years ago was better.
A great sign of a healthy economy is how much people expend on entertainment. After all, you won't be buying CDs if you don't have proper clothing and food (yes I'm exagerating here)
Anyway, yes DVD prices are ludicrous, however then again let me point out something. In Japan, it's well know that you are better of getting cable and watching (AND RECORDING - totally legal) anime on cable, then actually buying DVDs. DVD's are sold as collector's merchandising, not your "everyone-who-likes-can-buy". Actually, that's so with most TV works, even American series. Are anyone here crazy enough to buy - let say - 8 seasons of Friends on DVD? It would be expensive as well, not as much as Anime but then again Friends is american, Anime is Japanese, you'll always get a share for that.
Now, and that's the final blow: Even berne convention recons that one can have a copy for their own use. You will find that amusing, but if I was American and I downloaded say ... hmm ... well .. [insert anime which already aired, or is airing, on US], there would be NOTHING that law enforcers could do to me. I would not be doing anything illegal. I have the right to have a copy for my own viewing. "Oh you didn't pay for it" ... of course I did, I have cable, that show is airing. Instead of getting a TV capture device and capturing it myself, I downloaded it, same thing.
My point is: Fansubs might be illegal, but I downloading it would never be as long the title has/is airing/aired. Funny huh? If you think not, I would ask you: do you think it's illegal to record Simpsons using your VCR and building a collection? no, it isn't.
For instance, Most games have a crack called no-cd. It lets you play without needing to put the CD on the drive. Yes thats 99% of the times used as a crack for piracy, however, guess what, EA Games once pointed me such crack when I mailed saying I scratched my Battlefield CD. "W00t? is'nt that illegal", I asked: "No, you have the game, you have the right to use a no-cd just not to botter putting it on the drive". They even recon you can copy the CD to have a backup.
The border is, It would be illegal to let a friend have it, or starting distributing copies, but as long it's for me, it's legal. And hey, even if I did distribute my animes with fellow neighboors, they also have cable, so no illegal action too.
One would be more on the "illegal" side if one downloaded stuff that are actually NOT licensed. LOL
Morals? Hipocrisy runs the business, do you better not even bother XD~
p.s.: I'm an anime fan for 2 years. I have already expend some US$1000 on anime since then (mostly manga and OST, DVD's only when I get rich XD). I would never have expent any cent on it if it were not for fansubbing and file sharing.
Extensive quality reviews and some wall/scans, visit!
http://www.daisuki.com.br- Jun 13, 2004
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Quote by CaiobrzMy point is: Fansubs might be illegal, but I downloading it would never be as long the title has/is airing/aired. Funny huh? If you think not, I would ask you: do you think it's illegal to record Simpsons using your VCR and building a collection? no, it isn't.
As ilanka already pointed out
Quote by ilankaIf we are using bittorrent to download files, we are both consumers AND distributors, because of how bt works. Just like filesharers in our most favoritest example, we can be charged just as easily as the subbers and distro-ers.
Since you are distributers you are breaking the law, no matter how much you twist it.
- Jun 13, 2004
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Quote: Since you are distributers you are breaking the law, no matter how much you twist it.
I only use BT for new releases =p
I guess you are really on a quest to make us all criminals, thogh I'm pretty sure you have lots of mp3, anime wallpapers and scans on your system that ALSO are copyrighted.
p.s. you criminal, your avatar is an anime character, did you pay for the right to use it? =o
Extensive quality reviews and some wall/scans, visit!
http://www.daisuki.com.br- Jun 13, 2004
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Yeah BT is the wave of the future, screw kazaa. I think I can understand the mentality of the head of a corporation like ADV, no one's gonna tell him to reconsider any actions he takes because he's probably surrounded by a bunch of "Yes" men and because of this he thinks he makes no mistakes and everything he does is the absolute best way to solve his problems since no one objects him on anything, that and I believe he is no Anime fan.
"To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kinda scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my dad." - Jack Handy
"If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is, 'God is crying.' And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is, 'Probably because of something you did." - Jack Handy
- Jun 13, 2004
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Quote by Caiobrz
I guess you are really on a quest to make us all criminals, thogh I'm pretty sure you have lots of mp3, anime wallpapers and scans on your system that ALSO are copyrighted.
The point isn't to "make us all criminals" [we've all done a fine job of that on our own!], it's to point out that no matter how much we don't like it, we would be considered such in the eye of the law. I'd rather KNOW I'm in the wrong and take precautions, than not know and say "I can do whatever I want, neener!" The latter is an excellent way to have someone knock on your door and confiscate your computer.
I don't like alot of the IP/copyright laws, myself. And I REALLY don't like the way corporate America now owns our government [Oh hello, Congressman RIAA! How's Mrs. MPAA doing?] The only way to combat them is to keep informed [and know when you're uninformed. ignorance is not bliss, nor is it an excuse] and to fight it as you can. Whether it's letters to congress [hey, SOMEONE might listen, no matter how cynical I am], support for the EFF, or just making sure that if you aren't following the law, you are at least not drawing huge amounts of attention to yourself.
my guy: my life would be complete with rapid weight loss and larger breasts.
me: boobs on a stick! boobs on a stick!- Jun 13, 2004
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Quote by CaiobrzI guess you are really on a quest to make us all criminals, thogh I'm pretty sure you have lots of mp3, anime wallpapers and scans on your system that ALSO are copyrighted.
p.s. you criminal, your avatar is an anime character, did you pay for the right to use it? =o
There really is no need for ad homin. That's usually a sign of a weak argument. We were having such a nice discussion too...
:(
- Jun 13, 2004
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