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DQ and Credits "showing when low" ... Thoughts?

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chingetscook

chingetscook

Net Slacker

Was there a real bandwidth use problem that cutting the free download quota down to only 5 solves? Seriously what was the problem? Why should the majority of people here be forced to "contribute" to the community when most methods of contributing do not earn them anything? Last time I checked, you can post thoughtful comments on gallery items and reviews, and post useful items in the forum and get absolutely nothing in return.

The major fault I see with the line of reasoning in these recent changes is here: "reducing the perceived importance of credits". The policy actions reflect the exact opposite of this, the free download quota did not just reduced the perceived importance of credits, it reduced the real importance of credits a lot, and probably cut back on the amount of useless spam on the forums and everywhere by a lot.

You say one thing, but every step you have taken will only make credits more valuable rather then less. You have cut the number of free downloads which makes credits more important. You have cut out many of the methods of earning credits, making it much harder to earn them, and thus raising their value tremendously. Out of pure frustration I have to ask, why do you hate us so?

On a side note in the changelog "Corrupted images no longer cost money to download" :D Nice! Need this change now, more then ever.

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goldenstaralpha

goldenstaralpha

Novice of Pixels and Pencils

I don't see how reducing the daily quota amount thwarts leechers. All I see is this new system slowing them down. What is to stop them from leeching every day or waiting until they accumulate quota points (if that is possible now, I don't know)? If they wanted to get rid of leechers they might as well just get rid of the whole quota system and focus on a way to keep leechers from abusing the credits system.

Of course, leechers will find ways of breaking the system, anyway. Seems like all they have done is created headaches for those who participate in the credit system, and slowed leechers from downloading 30 per day to 5 per day.

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Devildude

Devildude

- Alstroemeria Records -

Quote by SpystreakTo all those that are complaining this new move was implemented to thwart those leechers that abused the free DL quota. It is unfair for these leechers to get away with these actions without contributing to the forum in any such manner. For those of you who do not like spending credits. If you participate in the community in general you will earn back the credits you spend. Furthermore although there is no limit to how much you can DL you shouldn't be going crazy DL anything and everything you like.

about the only thing they can do is to just whine when there are no credits anyway. I am getting my fair share of credits fromparticipation, and I am feeling right at home, I don't why the problem is apparrent anyway.

So really, I agree, this forced participation is a right move, it is something that will force it outwards. As for the rest, yes, value of credits are now even more important, but it is now better, cause you will never know until you got 128 and below and heck...that is still a lot.

I use like at the most 10 credits a day.
unless there are specific scans I wish to grab for a reason.
It is IMO, a right move for MT, definitely.

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EternalParadox

Retired Moderator

EternalParadox

.:Enigma Mod:.

By "decreasing the perceived value of credits" we mean we don't want members to see the numerical value as some sort of a status symbol. In other words, we don't want the mentality of "ooo, I now have 200 credits. But for the sake of self-satisfaction, I want MORE MORE MORE!"

That's what we mean by the "perceived" value of credits. The "real" value of credits is indeed increased, but that's why the credits was implemented in the first place. Credits are there to be used.

EternalParadox
Previously the Forum, Vector Art, and Policy Moderator

Jim3535

Jim3535

Shinigami

I am a bit annoyed at not being able to see my credit level. Not because I fear running out, but because it's the only feedback system to let me know if reports and such are useful. It would be nice to get a thumbs up/down on them.

The FDQ of 5 doesn't really bother me since that's about all I download (or more) anyway. However, I do have to wonder if the credit system is a bit too slanted towards the content creators. As others have pointed out, posting comments and replies pretty much nets you nil credits. I suppose that has been the idea all along since MT was always a wallpaper/art community.

Maybe it's just me, but these ever more draconian systems of limiting users seem to destroy the sense of community more than anything. Too much of what goes on here seems to have ulterior motivation behind it. It used to bother me, but I have since lost faith in the 'community'. I just try to contribute where I feel I have meaningful input and go with the flow.

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chingetscook

chingetscook

Net Slacker

Quote by EternalParadoxBy "decreasing the perceived value of credits" we mean we don't want members to see the numerical value as some sort of a status symbol. In other words, we don't want the mentality of "ooo, I now have 200 credits. But for the sake of self-satisfaction, I want MORE MORE MORE!"

That's what we mean by the "perceived" value of credits. The "real" value of credits is indeed increased, but that's why the credits was implemented in the first place. Credits are there to be used.

Regardless of what you say the goal was, the "percieved value" of credits will always follow the real value of credits. If you make credits more important people will want more credits and will be even more picky about spending them. Artists earn far more credits then someone who simply posts comments in the gallery or forum, I suppose from the artist standpoint there is nothing wrong with MT even if you removed the FDQ completely and doubled the price of everythig... as long as said artist never wants to share their work.

People talk about the motives of the admins and mods and I understand what they mean. I don't think of the admins or mods as my enemies, but I know from their actions they are not my friends. I do not get the impression of any personal grudges coming from the staff, they act professional and fairly when working with the users. But the apparent motivations of the policies they have been implimenting have changed recently. The original introduction of the credit system seemed mostly motivated to slow down the out of control bandwidth consumption. And all reports I have heard since then are that it has worked, bandwidth is kept at reasonable levels. But the policy shift lately feels like "if you aren't an artist we hate you". The most effective methods of earning credits are exclusive to people who submit items to the gallery, and that changes the motivations of people submitting artwork here.

I feel that rather then sharing your work, the primary motivation for submitting something for many artists has changed to earning more credits and that is why the quality of gallery submissions is dropping while the quantity continues to rise. The artists no longer care about putting out the best possible wall, they want to submit something that will get noticed. So it is a race to slap some ecchi scan that is sure to get attention on a bunch of filtered brushed backgrounds and wait for the masses to swarm to your wall earning you a ton of credits. The artwork really does seem to be taking second place to the pressure to earn more credits. I know this is not the goal of the staff, but this is the effect of the credit system and recent policy. On MTv2 I was around level 16 I think, I still commented on gallery items and favorited stuff I really liked, I was not standing still like a lot of the "hated leechers". I also didn't feel any huge motivation to submit artwork, once in a while I would see a wall and think it would be fun to make a wall of my own and submit it to see the reactions of others. Now the only reason I ever feel like making something is to earn more credits, the current system killed the artist in me.

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Dioma

Dioma

F*** off

Quote by chingetscook
Regardless of what you say the goal was, the "percieved value" of credits will always follow the real value of credits. If you make credits more important people will want more credits and will be even more picky about spending them. Artists earn far more credits then someone who simply posts comments in the gallery or forum, I suppose from the artist standpoint there is nothing wrong with MT even if you removed the FDQ completely and doubled the price of everythig... as long as said artist never wants to share their work.

People talk about the motives of the admins and mods and I understand what they mean. I don't think of the admins or mods as my enemies, but I know from their actions they are not my friends. I do not get the impression of any personal grudges coming from the staff, they act professional and fairly when working with the users. But the apparent motivations of the policies they have been implimenting have changed recently. The original introduction of the credit system seemed mostly motivated to slow down the out of control bandwidth consumption. And all reports I have heard since then are that it has worked, bandwidth is kept at reasonable levels. But the policy shift lately feels like "if you aren't an artist we hate you". The most effective methods of earning credits are exclusive to people who submit items to the gallery, and that changes the motivations of people submitting artwork here.

I feel that rather then sharing your work, the primary motivation for submitting something for many artists has changed to earning more credits and that is why the quality of gallery submissions is dropping while the quantity continues to rise. The artists no longer care about putting out the best possible wall, they want to submit something that will get noticed. So it is a race to slap some ecchi scan that is sure to get attention on a bunch of filtered brushed backgrounds and wait for the masses to swarm to your wall earning you a ton of credits. The artwork really does seem to be taking second place to the pressure to earn more credits. I know this is not the goal of the staff, but this is the effect of the credit system and recent policy. On MTv2 I was around level 16 I think, I still commented on gallery items and favorited stuff I really liked, I was not standing still like a lot of the "hated leechers". I also didn't feel any huge motivation to submit artwork, once in a while I would see a wall and think it would be fun to make a wall of my own and submit it to see the reactions of others. Now the only reason I ever feel like making something is to earn more credits, the current system killed the artist in me.


actually this is the truth. I was a bit surprised when I read that feedback and posts aren't as valued as artwork. I did notice that my wallpaper earned me much more credits then my comments. So I decided to spend my time on wallpapers when I could be commenting and posting since it is more useful for me. So i guess the DQ was a helping hand for posters.

I don't see how cutting the download quota actually reduces the "perceived importance" of credits. If you reduce the quota, logically, the credits become increasingly important. Add that to the fact that submitting posts and comments in the forum does not earn any credits, and I'm starting to wonder if Minitokyo is not so much "community-oriented" rather than "elite-oriented". Afterall, the current system doesn't seem to reward anything other than submitting scans/ artwork. I suppose it's a choice between lesser evils, but the slash on the download quota makes me seriously double think whether I want to download any original artwork/ fan art/ wallpaper or offer any advice on them, since I feel the compulsion to save my download quota for scans.

I also believe 5 is too low. That is a significant cut; I believe cutting it by 50% would have been much more reasonable. Also, you say you reduced the quota because some members suggested it. Not one person I saw requested it be reduced to 5. I believe common consensus was 10 to 15. That would have been quite enough to curb any future bandwidth problems, which, apparently, MT is not even coming close to experiencing.

Now take into consideration that since the download quota has been introduced, you do not gain credits for posting in the forums, gallery, or guestbook. If you do, it is an extremely miniscule amount. You are cutting us off at the knees, so to speak. Five free downloads on the one hand, but on the other, it is very difficult to earn credits. There are hundreds of submissions per day... o_0

I also find it absolutely absurd to hide our own credit value from us. Especially since people boasting about/revealing their amount happens once every other blue moon. I have certainly heard nothing of anyone doing this...

how about this...

quota replenishes at a rate of 10 per day up to a max of 30 and the rate of regeneration can be increased through participation...

and/or

set up a basic torrent forum that releases packs/updates so users can share amongst themselves

Feirai

Feirai

Bringer of Light

Quote by KyWhy does MT always change the moment members get used to what's there already? No offense to the adminm as they're doing a great job on maintaining such a large site, but if it isn't broken, why fix it?

I think this new system has been done cos they want to control the amount of leechers...

"He does not love who does not show love" - Shakespeare, The Two Gentlemen of Verona

I'll have to be more particular about loading walls.
Often there's not much feedback abour your given comments and your level is not rising. It's only dropping. Slowly. But it's dropping.
With only 5 free downloads I'm not in the mood to download walls from newbies to give helpful critic. I'll insteat download the wall with many favs and downloads.

Wermp

Friendly Neighborhood Navy Nuke.

The loyal forum poster is now dead as an active downloader. The wall maker has become the top of the food chain and the forum poster/commenter has become a victim of the system. The cries of "contibute and prosper" hold less weight now that the poster or critic seems to hold less weight in the current system. If these disturbing trends continue, I feel this community may become ripe for rebellion or mass exodus. There are communities that are successful without forced compliance, I am a proud member of a number of those. In my opinion MT has lost its focus somewhere in its zeal to curb bandwidth.

Devildude

Devildude

- Alstroemeria Records -

a piece of thought, everyone has their own opinions, if you did not find a balance between you and the community of course, u will eventually grow to hate it.

Bandwidth? last said it was not even a problem, and accordingly there was not even a need to concern for it, what worries in the people not leech, but more so complain over the abuse of having 30 FDQs.

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Mordin

Mordin

The Wise One

I agree with Wermp regarding the foodchain and the priority of MT placing its benefit on. I see they begin to phase out the non artist in MT, they no longer reward thoughts to the degree as they did in the past, since we don't produce anything, they consider us expendable. I don't blame them for choosing to reward artist only, because they have a big leeching problem, but they should at least give the non artistan some remedy. I should have seen it coming, they were focusing on making MT a art management gathering club, that is why they make the change in the system. They want to stop leechers through a quota, my experience with quota is that they always suck. Quota means a face slap every time you don't do something. It is like going to the theaters, but you can't watch the main feature movie until you perform a part in the film to earn the right to continue watching the movie. Personally I don't download much, so it hasn't affected me to the degree as some of the others have, but I still feel bad for those that want to recieve the benefits of MT that isn't leeching happy.

Another trend is that this place lost its excitment when it thinks it should clean up the fourm and value system. They viewed everything in a corporate fashion now, by that i mean the strict policy in topics, some of the best topics in the old fourm back in MT2 was nonsensical and unreasonable, like favorites, or just plain stupid ideas. Now everything has to contrbute to an end or serve some higher purpose in dicussion for it to be worthy to stay in the fourm. The fourm's standard turn into an intellectual elite's dicussion only, which is a very sad thing.

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Wandering_Youth

Wandering_Youth

lost in wonder forever...

Hmm, another change to the MT credits system. Well, not being able to see my credits does irritate me a little and have only 5 FDQ means I will have to be even more conservative with my downloading. However, that really is not a problem with me since I am very picky when it comes to downloading wallpapers and scans. But I agree with chingetscook that this will only slow down leechers and make life a pain for regular MT members and it may or may not make members contribute more to MT.

I have to admit that the reason why I come to MT is just to submit my artwork or scans, but the main real reason is to get feedback and critiques for my wallpapers so I can further improve myself in graphic arts. Yet, lately I have seen fewer and fewer constructive comments for my submissions or in the threads I post in The SandBox. Credits, to me, are just bonuses since my real goal is to create a wallpaper that will end up in the popular category. I seek fame not credits!
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Devildude

Devildude

- Alstroemeria Records -

so do I Wandering Youth, I seek fame too, but really consider how much these things are rare, you cannot really find them that way.
Submitting your work in MT is really hardly appreciated, unless you follow a style, mostly favored by people.
Trendwhore: Stars planets, scenery with enough bling to blind you, bunch of ecchi plus lots of sex...(that is not really me, I just prefer ecchi walls over others, and I hate trendwhore), and the thing is that, unless u follow patterns like these, it normally, more so that ever gets neglected.

Wallers being top of the food chain is indeed in a sense right, but I am sure it is not really one sided as some of you have mentioned.

We may receive more attention and favored by many for our skills, but really, do you think that we like it when all attention that was received by us is like" OMG I LIEK YOUR WALLZ!" ? No, we don't and majority of which such favs come from is also really saddening.

Thought and posters of forums are regarded as important, heck, why did they remove the chat lounge threads from appearing in recent posts? That was one way because they do care for the members who demand intellectual discussions, and seriously, in compare to other forums, the rules here are naturally easy to accept, seriously.

First and foremost, did you realize that the standards of conversation here is relatively good? I mean, look at all the nice threads with deep meaningful discussions going on. Isn't that nice enough? You can join in and yes, you ARE rewarded, it is not like you don't get anything anyway. Plus, you are contributing and time and again, MT mods and admins has expressed their sincere concerns over such issues of complaints, they are also human, and they think individually as well but it was for the long run of the community, benefitting them and honestly benefitting members as well.

Plus, do you know how much the people here have forked out for the running of this community? Cut them some slack and really find that balance instead of always standing against all that MT is heading for.

I know how hard it is to really contribute but seriously it is not all that hard. A token of your thoughts in forums, a piece of your wisdom in them, is worth that much to this community, you may not know it but it is there.

Quote by Mordin
They viewed everything in a corporate fashion now, by that i mean the strict policy in topics, some of the best topics in the old fourm back in MT2 was nonsensical and unreasonable, like favorites, or just plain stupid ideas. Now everything has to contrbute to an end or serve some higher purpose in dicussion for it to be worthy to stay in the fourm. The fourm's standard turn into an intellectual elite's dicussion only, which is a very sad thing.

There is always the chat lounge, and the lesser serious parts, plus, you have never been in AP have you? It is worse there.

Elite discussions? I do not think so, we are in a forum, where the average members ages are between 16-20 and what more is there to say, we are learning, and how can we be elite when we are only noobs in the world? We are actually lesser elite than you think!

I hardly think that discussions here serve any real purpose...fact, it is a discussion. I mean, if you want purpose, CNN and BBC has their own forums, why not? You want it, go get it.

Nuff said

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Ky

Ky

Blue

Really, I think the griping here is quite useless. I think this new system is seriously one of the worst ideas MT has implemented -- Not saying much, since ALL of their "upgrades" felt more like downgrades to me (and I know I'm not alone here). We all know it isn't going to go back.

And this "perceived value of credit" reasoning is so inane. Apparently, it's a crime now to feel good that you've contributed to MT. That's not even mentioning the mentality was hardly ever a case. If we're to use credits to buy things, why can't we see what we have? Well, whatever. Just another notch in MTs succombing to something worse.

Mordin

Mordin

The Wise One

To Devildude, I didn't say I dislike those decent discussion that you mention, such as those in the City Hall, all I am saying is that we need wide range of topics, and have tolerance for different taste. In time you will see what I am talking about, because the pattern of voice in the new forum are really similar, because they have phase out certain voice. Now before you jump down on my throat about elitism, you can be elitism by simple exclusion of others, it isn't an intentional act, just happen by a simple change of policy. Elite doesn't mean higher status, it just mean a selective group of similar minded people, and by browsing through the forum, you can tell the contribution of the thought are getting similar and similar. All I am saying MT feels like a big company now instead of the town house meeting feel to it in the old days.

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Spystreak

Retired Moderator

Spystreak

The Grim Reaper

Quote by MordinTo Devildude, I didn't say I dislike those decent discussion that you mention, such as those in the City Hall, all I am saying is that we need wide range of topics, and have tolerance for different taste. In time you will see what I am talking about, because the pattern of voice in the new forum are really similar, because they have phase out certain voice. Now before you jump down on my throat about elitism, you can be elitism by simple exclusion of others, it isn't an intentional act, just happen by a simple change of policy. Elite doesn't mean higher status, it just mean a selective group of similar minded people, and by browsing through the forum, you can tell the contribution of the thought are getting similar and similar. All I am saying MT feels like a big company now instead of the town house meeting feel to it in the old days.

Please don't blame the mods for the changes that have happened to MT. They were all instituted for very valid reasons. Yes MT2 had more of a free and at ease feel to it. Why because alot of people posted and contributed making some very good threads and some not so great ones. However over time the spammers began to show running rampant through the forums posting pure nonsense in an attempt to gain points onto their level. It was there way of trying to get to Level 10 as fast as possible which is why it is now seriously discouraged to post favorites or versus threads. They generally are free credits because they honestly don't require much thought into what to post. Which is another point I have to make. Credits just like with levels people have become obsessed to a degree with gaining more and more credits. Some not all members have even resorted to creating spam threads ie posting a thread that has no topic whatsoever or a duplicate thread. Some even go so far as to spam their own guestbooks. If MT feels like a business now well for that I am sorry but don't blame the mods and admins blame those few members that have ruined it for the rest of us by blatenly choosing to disregard the policies and rules that have been created.

Fools You Can't Escape from The Grim Reaper. Your Only Chance for Escape Is Death. Bye Bye Now
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SebastianvonKane

SebastianvonKane

Omniversal lone traveler

Reducing the download quota will just turn things worse. I'm a member since not so long, but not too early and I liked a lot MT since I knewed. Of course, MT v2 was too slow and sometimes you used got twin posts because many of you here neither hated IE or had a "dial-up" connection. But it was fun to see how some people used to have a level in the community despite some people just spammed into thier guestbooks or any chat lounge. Now, I'm tryin'g not to hate MT becuase I've made my first try to leave (you cna check my guestbook), but couldn't close my account. Why did I do this?
I'm studying computer engineering and 3D design, at the same time work as system depot vice-chief and as writter analyst at university. You know how much does hurt to lose almost 10 GB's of MT's pictures, colleted trough time and completely sorted, just because your HDD stopped spinning? And return to your sacred source just to realize that, you're no longer allowed to take part on the party in the way it used to be?
What I do mean with this is, there's is people with a little time to visit MT because they're on a hard study (do you hane any idea about managing network port's addressings on 128 bits, besides encrypted for SSL servers?) or they're working, and (this is about my case) sometimes accidents use to happen.
Recent events on MT have been really great, but recent changes on this place has darkened it's rejoice.
After a few months since the change took effect, I think we should return to the old level custom policy.
But you may turn it a little more rough, like 20 credits for downloading wallies, 40 for scans, or something like that.
Once again I feel myself forced to wait more days to retrieve some of my lost collection. But, OK. May be I'm selfish, but think again about the other members. In my vision, I've never seen such a number of complains about "bugs".
Ah, and bye the way before I leave, the "change password" utility doesn't seem to be online.
SEE YA!

"You have a job to do, and so do I. Yours is to sell socks and suspenders. Mine is to cross-examine people like you and crush them".

Jim3535

Jim3535

Shinigami

I suspect that the changes to make credits more valuable is more of an attempt to justify creating the elaborate credit system. The original purpose of the credit system was to reduce leeching, but the recent changes have come when bandwidth is no longer an issue. The admins/mods/elites have put a lot of thought, time, and effort into implementing the credit system. In that respect it was a shame that it was not being used as intended due to the free download quota.

However, imposing more restrictions to force the credit system into dominance is counterproductive. Many people will shift their activities towards ones with the greatest gains rather than the greatest contribution to the community. I have a rather limited amount of time I can devote to MT, so I don't particularly feel like spending lots of time posing in the forums when I get nil out of it. Maybe if I spent more time I would feel like part of the community, but the forums really don't feel like the rest of the forums I post at. Forced participation just contributes to crap if people don't want to do it in the first place. This was evident in the spam plague on MT2, the lack of useful comments in the gallery, and the mass produced walls that are flooding in.

In summary, I feel like it's a silly idea to needlessly force everyone to use credits. The system is in place, and the FDQ should be adjusted with bandwidth usage.

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DracotheNewbie

Nor Will nor Strength alone

Sorry :sweat:, but i dont undestand completely how the system of the credits and download quota works. I have not asked this before because i dont usually download, but it seems that this is a fact many members are concerned about so i have to update myself.

I would greatly appreciate if someone can explain me this!

Mordin

Mordin

The Wise One

Quote by Spystreak

Quote by MordinTo Devildude, I didn't say I dislike those decent discussion that you mention, such as those in the City Hall, all I am saying is that we need wide range of topics, and have tolerance for different taste. In time you will see what I am talking about, because the pattern of voice in the new forum are really similar, because they have phase out certain voice. Now before you jump down on my throat about elitism, you can be elitism by simple exclusion of others, it isn't an intentional act, just happen by a simple change of policy. Elite doesn't mean higher status, it just mean a selective group of similar minded people, and by browsing through the forum, you can tell the contribution of the thought are getting similar and similar. All I am saying MT feels like a big company now instead of the town house meeting feel to it in the old days.

Please don't blame the mods for the changes that have happened to MT. They were all instituted for very valid reasons. Yes MT2 had more of a free and at ease feel to it. Why because alot of people posted and contributed making some very good threads and some not so great ones. However over time the spammers began to show running rampant through the forums posting pure nonsense in an attempt to gain points onto their level. It was there way of trying to get to Level 10 as fast as possible which is why it is now seriously discouraged to post favorites or versus threads. They generally are free credits because they honestly don't require much thought into what to post. Which is another point I have to make. Credits just like with levels people have become obsessed to a degree with gaining more and more credits. Some not all members have even resorted to creating spam threads ie posting a thread that has no topic whatsoever or a duplicate thread. Some even go so far as to spam their own guestbooks. If MT feels like a business now well for that I am sorry but don't blame the mods and admins blame those few members that have ruined it for the rest of us by blatenly choosing to disregard the policies and rules that have been created.


I don't think I am blaming mods or admin for the change, I think you have misunderstood my intention, I am just stating my concern for the changes. I do apologize if I unintentional offend anyone with my comments, I am just rasing a point of view and argument for discussion, I believe that is still allowed. The problem that you stated in your post is not in dispute, we all understand that, but there should be a freedom to open a discussion to how to implement changes as MT is still a growing community, I don't assume MT3 is the final version. I am just here to give a different point of view. A healthy discussion is good for the community.

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