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From the mind comes the query.
Or, at least, prove to me that, in a graduating spectrum of probabilities, the existence of that being people call God is as probable as the fact that a slice of pizza that I put in my microwave oven comes out as a slice of pizza, and not a loaf of bread.
For purposes of familiarity, I will only answer arguments made in favor of the Abrahamic God, excluding Islam.
sorry but i can say theres no proof.
well theres always mention of God in bible.
From the mind comes the query.
There's always mention of, say, Toru Okada in Haruki Murakami's The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, or Ahab in Herman Melville's Moby-Dick.
Does that mean that they exist as well?
"well believe what you want," they say :/
hmm fiction will be always be fiction tho.
From the mind comes the query.
Quote by ttwen"well believe what you want," they say :/
hmm fiction will be always be fiction tho.
And the Bible? Isn't it fiction, too?
too bad for you bible is not a fiction. It's a history book.
From the mind comes the query.
Quote by ttwentoo bad for you bible is not a fiction. It's a history book.
It might be too pretentious of me to assume you are one of those literalists who take the Exodus as fact, but anyway, if you are, then I say:
This history book of yours is so riddled with inaccuracies and impossibilties, it would've been funny, had it not been treated with the reverence it has for so long.
yes when you take those instances as inaccuracies and impossibilities, that makes you a staunch non-believer. I don't find any point of convincing you anyway, since probably outside this internet world somebody tried and failed. It's like even if you can prove God does not exists as contrary to your topic for that matter, I won't believe it.
I'd say its just a difference of beliefs.
From the mind comes the query.
So, with all the evidence in the world that God, most probably, does not exist... you still won't believe, if only because your "holy" book says God exists?
You were correct in your assumption, only that many people tried to convince me to come back to the Roman Catholicism of my parents. I demolished their arguments in spectacular fashion.
However, I would be lying prostrate before God the second someone comes to me with inviolable proof that God (of whatever religion) exists.
Problem is, none has.
Hmmm... 1984, anyone?
Let's start with this:
Look around you. Everything's just too complex to have been made by chance. The natural laws, an eye, feelings,
air, heck water. Our universe is just too complex for chance to have made it. Believing that chance made the universe is
like believing that a can of chalk dust might make a chalk stick if you shook it long enough.
You're treading on dangerous ground here. Thing is, if God said He wrote the Bible(II Timothy 3:16), and since He,
Who is righteous and holy(sacred, revered, incorruptible, right, ya know the good stuff)(Psalm 145:17) wrote it, there
is nothing wrong or incorrect about it. I'd rather believe what's written in there than what other people try
to tell me, because as I've stated before, He's the only One Who's not corrupt.
I don't need hardcore scientific proof to know that there's a God. All I need to do is look around me and in
me.
From the mind comes the query.
Quote by CagariLet's start with this:
Look around you. Everything's just too complex to have been made by chance. The natural laws, an eye, feelings, air, heck water. Our universe is just too complex for chance to have made it. Believing that chance made the universe is like believing that a can of chalk dust might make a chalk stick if you shook it long enough.
You're treading on dangerous ground here. Thing is, if God said He wrote the Bible(II Timothy 3:16), and since He, Who is righteous and holy(sacred, revered, incorruptible, right, ya know the good stuff)(Psalm 145:17) wrote it, there is nothing wrong or incorrect about it. I'd rather believe what's written in there than what other people try to tell me, because as I've stated before, He's the only One Who's not corrupt.
I don't need hardcore scientific proof to know that there's a God. All I need to do is look around me and in me.
Ah, the design argument. Pretty nice stuff, if you're oblivious.
Let me explain the best and shortest I could. I am not an expert on the topic I am about to discuss, but I shall try my best.
First off, Darwinian evolution (or, and I prefer this, natural selection) is not chance. Not at all. Organisms evolve over time, in stages, shedding unnecessary features and keeping those needed for survival, evidence being intermediaries you can see all around.
Second, while physicists can offer no explanation for the origins of the universe, that does not mean your hypothesis - that God created everything - wins the debate. As of now, we're all agnostics on the origin of the universe.
Yes, you make an analogy about the universe - that of a can of chalk dust becoming a stick of chalk when shaken long enough. But, I ask you: how about your God? If you think about it well enough, the deity you are taking about is the chalk dust you hope that becomes a stick of chalk. Why? He's just as improbable as the universe - I mean, a designer who designs something has to have a designer himself.
So, my query: WHO DESIGNED GOD?
Yes, about the Bible - all those events in the Pentateuch? Myths. Gruesome, cruel, but myths.
Jesus? Unverifiable.
God? Questionable.
Quote by beyondmeasure
So, with all the evidence in the world that God, most probably, does not exist... you still won't believe, if only because your "holy" book says God exists?
if you can even find the slightest clue, that is :/
Quote:
However, I would be lying prostrate before God the second someone comes to me with inviolable proof that God (of whatever religion) exists.
well sadly, like i said before, there is no proof.
From the mind comes the query.
Quote: if you can even find the slightest clue, that is :/
Clues? There is more than sufficient evidence, both in nature and in logic, to refute each and every argument that the pious have. I do not have time to elaborate right now, though, so... next time.
Quote: well sadly, like i said before, there is no proof.
Oh, so you throw all arguments that do slightly favor you - and offer faith instead to prove that God exists?
Quote: So, my query: WHO DESIGNED GOD?
ehck. fatal statement. He creates us. u want proofs? for pyhsically proofs r 'disappear', those people at that time kept it safe so that none of us didnt destroy them. we've many witnesses that can proof God's exist; He shows us miracles. He answers all my prays. He gives some people the power of healing. He showed Himself in my mom's dreams. He give clues everyday in my dreams. He helps one of my teacher that were ignored by his families because he trusts God. my teacher can heal one of his friend just by praying. yes, all of them because of God.
I believe in God, but not really the Bible, at least not literally, even though I call myself Catholic. But I don't really take religion all that seriously anyway. Since there are so many, all of them claiming to be right, and hating the others despite having so many common similarities...
Back on topic...
I don't believe that God can be "proven" by humans, but rather he's just something we feel. One of
those unexplainable things. I do believe that spirits exist (mostly because I've met a few, and there's been
too many weird things that's happened to my family that can't be explained otherwise)
If you don't believe, you don't believe. I can't force you to because I can't control your feelings.
THERE ARE SECRETS WHERE FAIRIES DON'T LIVE.
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Well, i can't argument so strong like so much people here, because my english sucks... but i believe that God exist and in His son, and my faith is in He! :D
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Quote by beyondmeasure
Clues? There is more than sufficient evidence, both in nature and in logic, to refute each and every argument that the pious have. I do not have time to elaborate right now, though, so... next time.
looking forward to that, my friend, maybe in another thread :D
Quote:
Oh, so you throw all arguments that do slightly favor you - and offer faith instead to prove that God exists?
faith is the core of religion after all. you don't do maths on God. having to believe without proof of existence is faith. you leave to become a non-believer because you don't have faith. in God at least.
Quote by DarthTofu
If you don't believe, you don't believe. I can't force you to because I can't control your feelings.
that is kind of my principle also. maybe that proves that im not a good christian.
Okay. I would say that if you look at the amount of scientific data that was proven to be true in accuracy in the Bible (i.e. the mass flood, the genetic bottleneck of a few families surviving and repopulating the whole planet, the stellar knowledge of planetary alignments, constellations that we did not know about nor see until we made telescopes, the history of kings and buildings, empires... etc, ), its difficult to argue that the Bible has incorrect information in it. Its a history book, written over the ages by many people (whom I believe were instructed by God to do so). Its a tool for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training a person how to live. I believe that the Bible is a foundation created by God. To me, all the scientific evidence and the way I've interpreted it, is plently (besides my own faith) for me to see that there is proof that God exists.
Btw, some people believe that black holes don't really exist... even though we have scientific evidence that makes us pretty positive that they do. The belief in God is about faith. If you have no faith, you won't believe because of a predetermination made by yourself already; therefore the proof of the existance of God will never happen (for you unless you look again). Right?
Note: Please do not misinterpret this as an attack. I'm tired of the fighting in this forum. :sweat:
Also, what would be the point of faith if God just showed Himself plainly?
Even if God showed himself, there would still be people who didn't believe.
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Soulless Automaton
As this thread is about the god of christians, the following statements can be used to define "god":
1)All powerful
2)all good
3)all knowing
4)created everything
All of the above cannot however be true at the same time.
Take as an example the rebellion of certain angels:
God created the angels [has to as he created everything], and he knew what the results of his actions would be[has to as
he is all-knowing]. Thus he knowingly created beings that would rebel against his absolute control, and in the process
cause him to damn them to eternal suffering. Therefore god cannot be all good as he willing created sapient beings with
the knowledge that his actions would lead to there eternal suffering.
Second, shorter refutation: God created everything means that this being created evil and thus cannot be all good by definition.
Watch me fault her
You're living like a disaster
She said kill me faster
With strawberry gashes all over - Strawberry Gashes by Jack Off Jill
Quote: Well, i can't argument so strong like so much people here, because my english sucks... but i believe that God exist and in His son, and my faith is in He!
yes, that's what ur life for
Quote: Thus he knowingly created beings that would rebel against his absolute control, and in the process cause him to damn them to eternal suffering.
everything turns up exactly as His will. n suffering is the part of it.
Quote: God created everything means that this being created evil and thus cannot be all good by definition.
God doesnt create evil things for the evil things come from the
devil.
Survivor...
The universe itself is a paradox...(god or not...it is...who design god? What came before big bang? You know...all these stuff...)
So the result for me is...do we really need to care? All the crazy stuff of these sometimes should just be ignored...(but yeah...curiosity...)
Quote by priincesseverything turns up exactly as His will. n suffering is the part of it.
God knows who will rebel and suffer? And I think God's all loving! Oh...god's evil...basically...
Soulless Automaton
Quote by priincessGod doesnt create evil things for the evil things come from the devil.
However god created the devil thus god created evil.
Watch me fault her
You're living like a disaster
She said kill me faster
With strawberry gashes all over - Strawberry Gashes by Jack Off Jill
I would like to believe that God exists, but it's hard to ignore just how convenient the concept of God is used in society. Frankly, I suspect that people have a hard time believing that maybe there's just nothing after death and that death is permanent, hence mankind created the idea that there's someone immortal who will be able to care for people even after death. Let's see: In Greek mythology people go to reside with Hades after death in the underworld. In Christanity people either go the heaven or to hell, but there's somewhere to go. In Egypt, the soul travel beyond the gates to ther afterlife, hence all the food and gifts they are buried with (who say's you can't bring worldly posessions with you when you die?). In Islam people worship the great Allah, who will bless them with a great and eternal afterlife. In Buddhism and Hinduism people's may die, but the soul is immortal and wil be reborn in another guise. See a common thread here? No one is dead...dead. There's always something to do afterwords or somewhere to go. In some ways I almost see it as a way to rationalize death. If one has to die, then the belief that there's something after death makes the process of dying that much easier to accept. I'm not saying that God doesn't exist, but it just seems very convenient that most Gods in religion look like humans or are mostly humaniod in shape. So...maybe people created God in their own image (ducks and hides from protests). I want to believe in God very much, but having a strong science background I have a tough time believing that someone can just will something into existance. It turns everything I have ever learned on it's head. Let's not forget the last benefit here: being able to say "God told me to do this" means that you're always right. You can ignore all reason and evidence simply by saying "the divine told me to to this so all your mundane laws simply don't apply to me. Heck, I'm obeying a higher cause." So said the Kings who ruled by divine right, the crusaders who are out fighting for the divine cause, and people who blows themselves up so that they can enjoy the afterlife with God's blessing. Having priests or clerics call upon people to fight in the name of God is very powerful because you simply can't rationalize with these people; the guys fighting are probably not afraid of death and will do things they normally would not do because they "just know" what they will be rewarded in the afterlife. So, God can be used to mobilize the masses for some person's own political agenda (which I find terrifying). Oh yeah...was it Marx who said that religion was the opiate of the masses? I hope not but sometimes it's really hard to tell. So does God exist? I opt for a cautious yes I hope so but please offer me some rationality.
Take the book or Don't belive
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