do you try to convert people to be atheist?
and do you feel atheist gives you more freedom?
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Quote by muyojoeIt sounds easy to be an atheist. Only worry about yourself, worry about what you do, say you have no control, and say, even if you are doing nothing, that you are doing your best.
I'm sorry, but at least religions (all that I know of) teach you to turn the other cheek and that it is your responsibility to help others (poor, misfortuned, etc...). I may not agree with all of their methods, but the message is better and sounder than yours. Good luck with your beliefs though. I really was hoping that either of you was truly trying to make your heaven better for all of us, but I guess not. Personally when your son is having heart surgery, your wife is giving birth, or you almost die yourself (some of what I've been through) you find out what you believe in. I take that to heart and won't forget it, because that would be hypocritical.It sounds like you think that there is supposed to be some goal to being Athiest. There isn't. It's sumply the belief that there is no God. There doesn't have to be some point to it. An athiest just does not believe in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent being. It's not a religion, it's a belief.
And to be athiest doesn't mean that one is without morals. It's just not a "requirement" in being atheist. The way you're presenting your argument, it sounds like you believe that only religious people can be good people. There are good and bad atheists, just like there are good and bad religious folks.
That being said, I had a question. Do you believe that the Big Bang was a random event caused by pure probability? Because short of the will of a divine being, I can't think of a reasonable explanation for that.
Quote by ProgramZEROYou may not be an Atheist but that does not concern me. I'm not gonna persecute you if you don't think like me, unlike a Christian.
Sounds like persecution to me."It is especially important to encourage unorthodox thinking when the situation is critical: At such moments every new word and fresh thought is more precious than gold. Indeed, people must not be deprived of the right to think their own thoughts. "
-Boris Yeltsin
- Sep 06, 2005
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Quote by muyojoeIt sounds easy to be an atheist. Only worry about yourself, worry about
what you do, say you have no control, and say, even if you are doing
nothing, that you are doing your best.
I'm sorry, but at least religions (all that I know of) teach you to
turn the other cheek and that it is your responsibility to help others
(poor, misfortuned, etc...). I may not agree with all of their methods,
but the message is better and sounder than yours. Good luck with your
beliefs though. I really was hoping that either of you was truly trying
to make your heaven better for all of us, but I guess not. Personally
when your son is having heart surgery, your wife is giving birth, or
you almost die yourself (some of what I've been through) you find out
what you believe in. I take that to heart and won't forget it, because
that would be hypocritical.Here here.!!
What will you do if there is a god and you end up in hell? ;) jk jk
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Quote by Miroku4444
What will you do if there is a god and you end up in hell? ;) jk jk
I suspect the same thing everyone in hell will do: burn!"It is especially important to encourage unorthodox thinking when the situation is critical: At such moments every new word and fresh thought is more precious than gold. Indeed, people must not be deprived of the right to think their own thoughts. "
-Boris Yeltsin
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muyojoe: My Mom almost died this year. I almost died this year (my appenidx exploded, and my temperature reached 105.6f degrees before they could bring it down. If it hits 106f, you're dead.) My grandfather and my childhood best friend both died during the last month. Don't tell me hardship's going to make me turn to religion, because the last two years have been hell on earth for me. What got me through it? Inner strength and the support of my extended family (which includes my friends, all of whom I've been close with for a number of years). I'm sorry, but I do not believe that religious people are necessarily trying to make the world "better for all of us". For followers of their particulars beliefs, maybe. And I'm honestly not interested in trying to better the world. I've tried to better the country, both by voting and speaking out and demonstrating against policies and leaders that I find to be harmful. I'm not going to devote my life to trying to bleed for everyone, though. I can't pretend to know what's best for everyone in the world, and though I'd be making others happy, I'd be miserable, meaning I would only be doing it in the hopes of some greater reward down the line. I don't think that would be honest, and I don't think it would be fair to me or to the people that I would supposedly be "helping". I do help when I'm needed, and I do feel that all people have a social responsiblity ala Dickens, although not a religious one, to help their downtrodden, yes.
My morals aren't Christian morals, but I do have a moral set. I'm not a sociopath just because I'm not a Christian. I try to be a good person and, although I don't take it from any book, I do try to follow the much lauded "golden rule." I try to treat others as I would like to be treated in the hopes that they will do the same. Unfortunately, it seems that is, more often than not, not the case. "Turning the other cheek" works well in theory, but there are those who see that as a sign of weakness rather than the strength that it really is. For that kind of person, a different kind of strength is required. I'm a realist and I recognize this. I should also point out, at this time, that if we're going to start pulling Bible quotes, I could easily show quite a few examples of the christian "message" that are not nearly so wholesome as the basics that you have pointed out. 80% of the reason that I turned away from Christianity is that everyone said that you had to be fully faithful in the religion, but hardly anyone was. For instance, the Bible specifically forbids mixed fabrics, but most devout Christians I know still wear jeans. Also, the Bible contradicts itself many times and is very, very open to interpretation. I knew I couldn't agree with everything presented therein, so how could I possibly devote my faith to it? The other 20% of the reason I turned away was the type of person most Christians around me were. I won't get into that, though.
You talk a lot about the atheist message, but there really isn't one. Most atheists (and agnostics) don't go around attemping to convert others to STOP believing. Would it surprise you to know that, although I've been agnostic for years, I actually have part of a degree finished in Religion? Actually, I find religion, all religions, to be fascinating. I have studied dozens of beliefs systems, and have yet to find one that I can unquestioningly devote myself to, so I decided to learn more about them. Eventually, I decided that religious studies weren't actually where I wanted to be, but I did spend a good portion of my life on them, and I am quite knowledgable about them. As opposed to the atheists and agnostics I've known, whose beliefs i usually don't discover until I've known them for quite sometime, I have been hassled and even harassed and threatened by members of the Christian offshoots trying to convert me many times during my life. What sort of message is that?
miroku: if there is a God, I think he'll understand that I did not consider myself intelligent enough to understand things beyond the ken of mortals, and was paralyzed by the choices presented to me by all differing religions. I think he'll see that I tried hard to basically be a good person, that I had done more good than harm during my time on earth. If he sends me to hell, and he truly is a perfect being, I will feel I got a bum rap. But, of course, the bible would say that's my flaw as a human. If you believe the Dante-esque Roman-Catholic version of hell, the worst I would go to is limbo, where they send the virtuous non-believers, and the best I would go to would be purgatory, where I could attempt to atone for my disbelief and try to make it into the kingdom of heaven after all. Neither seems so terribly bad, honestly, and I'm not certain I want to be a part of a Heaven where people would be excluded simply for making a wrong choice in what to believe. Only a third of my friends and family would be there; we all believe different things.
endless-passion: I can't answer this from the atheist perspective, but let me answer for agnosticism anyway. As stated above, I never try to convert people to my way of thinking. I don't like when people try to convert me, so I won't intentionally cause others to be uncomfortable either. I will defend my position and myself, and I'm always happy to answer any questions someone might have and hear about their beliefs but, no, I would never try to turn anyone away from their faith. Do I think agnosticism gives me more freedom? There's not really a firm answer...it's more of a "yes and no." I think agnosticism allows me more of a chance to think for myself than most religions. Many, though not all, religions depend on believing without reservation. You're not allowed to question anything, or its seen as sacreligious. I think seeing things from an outsiders point of view gives me a certain perspective on some beliefs and issues that wouldn't be possible if I were closer to them and worried about going to Hell for examining things to closely. I don't think it gives me more freedom to act differently, if that's what you mean, though. If anything, my moral code is stricter than that of most religions, and because I must be true to myself, I'm actually slightly less free in my morals than most Christians, I think.
viktorvonrussia: I don't know what happened to start life on this planet. It could have been any number of things, and new theories appear every so many years. I acknowledge that it's possible that it could have been set by a divine being, but I also acknowledge the "Big Bang" theory and the "Slow-swirling Mass" (or whatever it's called) theories as possibilities. I also think there are many more possible theories that we are not yet scientifically advanced enough to realize.
Rayito16: "The unexamined life is not worth living." - Socrates
No, I'm not from Switzerland. It's a statement on my religious beliefs. It's....well, look, it's just too much to explain here, alright?
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Quote by Rayito16i dont need to ask you questions regarding religion you are an athyeist what do you know about religion how do you know what you wil say is right if you dont believe in god exists
Not really sure which are questions so I'm gonna try to answer what I believe to be questions. Please use question marks next time to separate the questions.
Personally, I think that religion played an early role of science. In my opinion, religions are all a collection of past theories that people believed. Theories that tried to answer the questions of early man that quenched the thirst of man's hunger to grasp understanding.
I don't know if I'm right, I can only believe in what I think is true. I base this belief on the role religion has played in the past. I don't believe in any god that man has created in the past. There might exist a higher power but I do not believe that any past religion is correct.Quote by PAcheyou love fellow man.your heart must be damn big
I love all man but I do not tolerate war or hate. Man is the most imperfect thing on this planet.
Quote by muyojoeIt sounds easy to be an atheist. Only worry about yourself, worry about what you do, say you have no control, and say, even if you are doing nothing, that you are doing your best.
What do you expect of me? I'm only 16! I can only live my life. It takes humanity to solve humanity's problems. Some of the biggest figures in history have people behind them with their full support.
Quote by muyojoeI'm sorry, but at least religions (all that I know of) teach you to turn the other cheek and that it is your responsibility to help others (poor, misfortuned, etc...). I may not agree with all of their methods, but the message is better and sounder than yours.
Really? You think so? Well, let's read a quote from the bible that I have found.
"When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you are entering to occupy and drives out many nations before you—Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations more powerful than you—when the Lord your God delivers them into your power and you defeat them, you must put them to death. You must not make a treaty with them or spare them. You must not intermarry with them, neither giving your daughters to their sons nor taking their daughters for your sons; if you do, they will draw your sons away from the Lord and make them worship other gods. Then the Lord will be angry with you and will quickly destroy you. But this is what you must do to them: pull down their altars, break their sacred pillars, hack down their sacred poles and destroy their idols by fire, for you are a people holy to the Lord your god; the Lord your God chose you out of all nations on earth to be his special possessions."
Deuteronomy 7:1-6
Sounds like a great lesson to teach to people. Young Christians will learn about committing genocide. That's a great lesson. Thank you God! :)
Quote by muyojoeGood luck with your beliefs though. I really was hoping that either of you was truly trying to make your heaven better for all of us, but I guess not. Personally when your son is having heart surgery, your wife is giving birth, or you almost die yourself (some of what I've been through) you find out what you believe in. I take that to heart and won't forget it, because that would be hypocritical.
Okay, I'll tell you what. If a terrorist attack ever affects us both committed by a man that has declared a 'Jehad' on other religions, I'll gratefully take that ambulance ride to the nearest hospital and be helped by science and you can get on your knees and pray that that infection doesn't spread to vital organs. Don't worry, you'll be fine. Your god will help you.
Quote by Endless-Passiondo you try to convert people to be atheist?
and do you feel atheist gives you more freedom?Well, no. I just try to live my life. If anyone is trying to convert to Atheism, I will show full support and explain what being Atheist is all about. Atheism gives me freedom. I can do whatever I want as long as I don't commit any crimes. When I die, I'll go wherever the stream of reality takes me. I'll go wherever we are taken or I will rot in the ground. I have no choice. None of us do. We can only live this life that we know exists and try to make a heaven out of what we have.
Quote by viktorvonrussiaI had a question. Do you believe that the Big Bang was a random event caused by pure probability? Because short of the will of a divine being, I can't think of a reasonable explanation for that.
Well, there is no evidence that the Big Bang occured but it is certainly the most plausible theory. Now, let's say that it did occur. We wouldn't know what existed before the Big Bang so we can't say that it was random. The reason you suddenly resort to pointing fingers at a god is because a god can do anything. I don't believe that a god created the universe because no one knows for sure how the universe was created. We weren't there when it was created. Science provides things that try to validate their theory, in this case, the Big Bang while religion provides an entity that can do anything at the flick of a switch and never bothers to provide the evidence that supports that belief or theory.
Quote by viktorvonrussia
Quote by ProgramZEROYou may not be an Atheist but that does not concern me. I'm not gonna persecute you if you don't think like me, unlike a Christian.
Sounds like persecution to me.
I wasn't persecuting anyone. I'm just saying that Christians aren't very tolerant of Atheists, Jews, inter-racial couples, or homo-sexuals.
Quote by Miroku4444Here here.!!
What will you do if there is a god and you end up in hell? ;) jk jkIf there is a hell, WHICH I seriously DOUBT, I'll just burn. I'm going down. Stick a pitch fork in me cause I'm going down.
Quote by viktorvonrussia
Quote by Miroku4444
What will you do if there is a god and you end up in hell? ;) jk jk
I suspect the same thing everyone in hell will do: burn!Light up the grill my friend.
Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.
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Why is it that you say that science and religion don't mix? Remember, it is the people who use their religion to accomplish their own selfish goals.
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Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by julsWhat do Atheists think about self esteem? Where does it come from and what they do when they are down?
I think that self-esteem is the amount of self worth one has.
Well duh. What else is it? Stupid question, no offence juls.
Quote by ProgramZEROI'm not gonna persecute you if you don't think like me, unlike a Christian.
OK... you're a twat. All Christians are xenophobes, & noone else is? I'm attacking you now, but not because I'm a Christian... I'm attacking you because you show quite clearly you haven't got a clue. Just to be clear myself, the actions of the fundie right in the US don't make the rest of us whackjobs.
Now, my question to the Atheist: do you really think science & religion are mutually exclusive? I know of at least one mainstream religion that isn't... your favourite, Christianity. Not if any real thought & understanding of both is put in anyway. Sure they're incompatible if you take every word in the Bible literally (which is stupid - if you do that you're going against what Jesus himself is reported to have said, in that very book).
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Quote by FredGreg
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by julsWhat do Atheists think about self esteem? Where does it come from and what they do when they are down?
I think that self-esteem is the amount of self worth one has.
Well duh. What else is it? Stupid question, no offence juls.
Well it does matter.. because different religions think of self-esteem differently..
Say for example, Christian's self-esteem is God given worth.. not self worth one gives to themselves.- Sep 06, 2005
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Quote by juls
Quote by FredGreg
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by julsWhat do Atheists think about self esteem? Where does it come from and what they do when they are down?
I think that self-esteem is the amount of self worth one has.
Well duh. What else is it? Stupid question, no offence juls.
Well it does matter.. because different religions think of self-esteem differently..
Say for example, Christian's self-esteem is God given worth.. not self worth one gives to themselves.Self-esteem is your own opinion of yourself, nothing more, nothing less - hence the 'self' part of it. God-given worth might be a major factor in deciding that, but is not it itself. I get what you mean now, I think, but it's still the wrong terminology.
Oh... I missed this earlier:
Quote by WiseSalesmanviktorvonrussia: I don't know what happened to start life on this planet. It could have been any number of things, and new theories appear every so many years. I acknowledge that it's possible that it could have been set by a divine being, but I also acknowledge the "Big Bang" theory and the "Slow-swirling Mass" (or whatever it's called) theories as possibilities. I also think there are many more possible theories that we are not yet scientifically advanced enough to realize.
Then there's always the possibility that a divine being caused that big bang or whichever you choose. Apparently I'm siding with the US neo-con Christian Right here, which I don't like, but I came to that conclusion myself years ago.
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You gotta love this quote from the bible, it teaches men to be pedophiles and to keep female children alive for an obvious purpose:
Num.31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."It's also funny when people who believe in god think that Atheists are free/don't care about their actions or the consequences of their actions, because they know they won't be going to heaven/hell so why bother act civil? Well, for one, nobody wants to die, and if you commit crimes and murders you will go to prison. I for one do not want to go to prison and waste my life, because heaven is what we make it to be, here on earth. We have laws that govern the way life works on earth, and if you disobey those laws, you will be punished. Not by the almighty hand of god but by the long arm of the law.
Man you people are idiots.
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Quote: Well, there is no evidence that the Big Bang occured but it is certainly the most plausible theory. Now, let's say that it did occur. We wouldn't know what existed before the Big Bang so we can't say that it was random. The reason you suddenly resort to pointing fingers at a god is because a god can do anything. I don't believe that a god created the universe because no one knows for sure how the universe was created. We weren't there when it was created. Science provides things that try to validate their theory, in this case, the Big Bang while religion provides an entity that can do anything at the flick of a switch and never bothers to provide the evidence that supports that belief or theory.
Well, another thing that makes me think someone or something was behind the Big Bang is that everything seems to have order and purpose. From the structure of molecules to natural selection, there seems to be reasons that things are the way they are. If there is no will behind reality, that would mean that everything is random, wouldn't it?Quote: I wasn't persecuting anyone. I'm just saying that Christians aren't very tolerant of Atheists, Jews, inter-racial couples, or homo-sexuals.
That statement is as ridiculous as saying that Athiests are amoral heathens who don't care about people.Quote by koutetsuMan you people are idiots.
By "you people," do you mean religious people in general?"It is especially important to encourage unorthodox thinking when the situation is critical: At such moments every new word and fresh thought is more precious than gold. Indeed, people must not be deprived of the right to think their own thoughts. "
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if you dont believe in god, then at least believe that there is always something that cannot be explained. its simply the duality theory, to have good, one must have evil. to have love, there has to be hate. to have some things logical, some things simply must be illogical.
but i choose to believe that there is a being that can do the impossible (miracles, etc) sooooo.....yeah.
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Quote by GEEWhy is it that you say that science and religion don't mix? Remember, it is the people who use their religion to accomplish their own selfish goals.
They don't. Some of religion's theories contradict that which science tells us.
Quote by FredGregOK... you're a twat. All Christians are xenophobes, & noone else is? I'm attacking you now, but not because I'm a Christian... I'm attacking you because you show quite clearly you haven't got a clue. Just to be clear myself, the actions of the fundie right in the US don't make the rest of us whackjobs.
Now just because you are not a Xenophobe doesn't disprove the fact that, in general, Christians are anti-semitic. Anti-semitism was started when Christianity was trying to force Jews to convert. Jews, Christians, and Muslims have a very hard time getting along. Atheists, in general, care not if you're a Jew or a Muslim. Atheists have no religion.
Quote by FredGregNow, my question to the Atheist: do you really think science & religion are mutually exclusive? I know of at least one mainstream religion that isn't... your favourite, Christianity. Not if any real thought & understanding of both is put in anyway. Sure they're incompatible if you take every word in the Bible literally (which is stupid - if you do that you're going against what Jesus himself is reported to have said, in that very book).
They are incompatible because science and religion have disagreed in some of the theories that both sides have put forward. The story of Adam and Eve contradicts the theory of evolution. And if you shouldn't take literally every word in the bible, then how the hell will you know what to take serious and what to ignore? It's all a load of crap in my opinion.
And I would like to say that I don't hate Christianity. I hate what it does to people. Some people just make some stupid decisions based on their religion. People are refusing to use condoms in the age of HIV and AIDS infections just because their religion says it. Christianity isn't helping in fighting the AIDS epidemic. People protest abortion and at the same time holy figures preach against condoms. We are heavily overpopulated and women are being forced into motherhood. The troubling part is that this is most common in poor countries where the larger the population, the harder it is to lift onesself out of poverty.Quote by FredGregThen there's always the possibility that a divine being caused that big bang or whichever you choose. Apparently I'm siding with the US neo-con Christian Right here, which I don't like, but I came to that conclusion myself years ago.
I don't think that any of the gods man has created in the past is correct. IF there is an all-powerful being, I severely doubt that past religions could be correct. In the bible, it is said that god created the Earth in 7 days, if I remember correctly. Shortly after this, the Adam and Eve story comes into play. Science says that the Earth is about 4,570,000,000 years old and that the human race is only about 400-250 thousand years old. There's an obvious inconsistency.
Quote by viktorvonrussiaWell, another thing that makes me think someone or something was behind the Big Bang is that everything seems to have order and purpose. From the structure of molecules to natural selection, there seems to be reasons that things are the way they are. If there is no will behind reality, that would mean that everything is random, wouldn't it?
Well this is one of the questions that haunts us all. There is no answer to such a question. Science tries to provide explanation to an overwhelming question. Religion just conjures up an omnipotent being but never provides evidence to prove the character they have just come up with. If there is truly a force that meant for everything to make sense, I think that one must then prove that that force is a god that had been created by a religion of a past civilization. In other words, I think that ALL religions ARE WRONG.
Quote by viktorvonrussiaI wasn't persecuting anyone. I'm just saying that Christians aren't very tolerant of Atheists, Jews, inter-racial couples, or homo-sexuals.
That statement is as ridiculous as saying that Athiests are amoral heathens who don't care about people.In general, it's true. Christians aren't very tolerant of people who don't believe in Christianity. You don't see Atheists gassing Jews in chambers or flying planes into buildings. Christians blame 911 and Katrina on gays.
Quote by tecnophreakif you dont believe in god, then at least believe that there is always something that cannot be explained. its simply the duality theory, to have good, one must have evil. to have love, there has to be hate. to have some things logical, some things simply must be illogical.
but i choose to believe that there is a being that can do the impossible (miracles, etc) sooooo.....yeah.Well, I do agree that some things we will probably never understand. No science or religion could explain and provide evidence to some phenomena that we observe. Religion only seeks to stick to one explanation and refuses all others. Science allows multiple theories to rise. When you talk of the duality theory, you compare common human concepts to questions that have no answer. You compare love and hate and good and evil to things like supernatural beings. If there is a good god who is all-loving, there must be a god that is full of hate and evil. You are basically doing the same thing except you are giving an imaginary avatar to the concept of love and hate and good and evil. From a mathematical standpoint, you have two entities: Love and Hate, Good and Evil, and mystical beings. Here is the mathematical equation: (LH+GE)+divine being=you believe in an imaginary being that does not exist only because Love and Hate and Good and Evil have been given to this entity. Now, turn your attention to the logical and illogical. There are certainly things that are logical but I can't think of many things that are illogical AND are true. Could you show me some especially some that prove a god or higher power?
And when you say miracles, what do you mean?
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Quote: If there is truly a force that meant for everything to make sense, I think that one must then prove that that force is a god that had been created by a religion of a past civilization. In other words, I think that ALL religions ARE WRONG.
I'm not saying that any existing religion is "right." What I'm saying is that there is something out there that set everything in motion because there is purpose to the way things are structured. That force could be something that nobody has yet thought of.
Quote: In general, it's true. Christians aren't very tolerant of people who don't believe in Christianity. You don't see Atheists gassing Jews in chambers or flying planes into buildings. Christians blame 911 and Katrina on gays.
Geez, what kind of Christians do YOU hang out with? I've never even heard of blaming 9/11 on gays, of all people. Those Christians are the radical ones. And by nature, radicals are more outspoken, so that's what you hear on the news and whatever. You never hear from the Christians who don't blame natural disasters on alternative lifestyles. It doesn't necessarily mean that most Christians feel that way. And could you at least say "Some Christians..." when you make statements like that? It seems very close-minded to say that everyone with such beliefs is like this. That's where stereotypes come from.
"It is especially important to encourage unorthodox thinking when the situation is critical: At such moments every new word and fresh thought is more precious than gold. Indeed, people must not be deprived of the right to think their own thoughts. "
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When I attended Ashland University, I sat in on a religious group entitled "hope fellowship". This was the week after the september 11th disaster. After a rousing speech about how we should make it a point to try to convert others and how, no matter what they say or do, you should not give up until they agree to convert, we split up into small groups. The group leader, I kid you not, said "I do not know what we have done to anger God such that we would lift his hand of protection from the United States, but let us pray that we get back into his good graces soon. We must purge the sin from out country to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again." It's a sentiment that I would hear echoed again and again, both by local Christians and religious figures in the media, over the next several months. And yes, many of them did lay the disaster specifically at the feet of the homosexual community. I have also heard many Christians and religious figures explain AIDS as "God's punishment of the homosexual" If you don't believe me, check out http://www.godhatesfags.com/ for the worst, most intolerant, vitriolic garbage present on the internet.
I do agree with you, however, that not all Christians believe in this way. Most who have been willing to speak to me at length about their beliefs, however, have eventually stated an intolerance, and often hatred, of gays.
No, I'm not from Switzerland. It's a statement on my religious beliefs. It's....well, look, it's just too much to explain here, alright?
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Can I join in? Just to level things out a bit... everyone's getting quite defensive.
Brownie the Cat
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Quote by sadotsuCan I join in? Just to level things out a bit... everyone's getting quite defensive.
In my opinion, the answer is "of course". This is a free and open forum, and a free and open conversation. We're here to share our beliefs and answer each others' questions. I see no way in which having more information or another point of view could be at all detrimental to the experience. ^_^
No, I'm not from Switzerland. It's a statement on my religious beliefs. It's....well, look, it's just too much to explain here, alright?
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Quote by WiseSalesmanmuyojoe: My Mom almost died this year. I almost died this year (my appenidx exploded, and my temperature reached 105.6f degrees before they could bring it down. If it hits 106f, you're dead.) My grandfather and my childhood best friend both died during the last month. Don't tell me hardship's going to make me turn to religion, because the last two years have been hell on earth for me. What got me through it? Inner strength and the support of my extended family (which includes my friends, all of whom I've been close with for a number of years). I'm sorry, but I do not believe that religious people are necessarily trying to make the world "better for all of us". For followers of their particulars beliefs, maybe. And I'm honestly not interested in trying to better the world. I've tried to better the country, both by voting and speaking out and demonstrating against policies and leaders that I find to be harmful. I'm not going to devote my life to trying to bleed for everyone, though. I can't pretend to know what's best for everyone in the world, and though I'd be making others happy, I'd be miserable, meaning I would only be doing it in the hopes of some greater reward down the line. I don't think that would be honest, and I don't think it would be fair to me or to the people that I would supposedly be "helping". I do help when I'm needed, and I do feel that all people have a social responsiblity ala Dickens, although not a religious one, to help their downtrodden, yes.
My morals aren't Christian morals, but I do have a moral set. I'm not a sociopath just because I'm not a Christian. I try to be a good person and, although I don't take it from any book, I do try to follow the much lauded "golden rule." I try to treat others as I would like to be treated in the hopes that they will do the same. Unfortunately, it seems that is, more often than not, not the case. "Turning the other cheek" works well in theory, but there are those who see that as a sign of weakness rather than the strength that it really is. For that kind of person, a different kind of strength is required. I'm a realist and I recognize this. I should also point out, at this time, that if we're going to start pulling Bible quotes, I could easily show quite a few examples of the christian "message" that are not nearly so wholesome as the basics that you have pointed out. 80% of the reason that I turned away from Christianity is that everyone said that you had to be fully faithful in the religion, but hardly anyone was. For instance, the Bible specifically forbids mixed fabrics, but most devout Christians I know still wear jeans. Also, the Bible contradicts itself many times and is very, very open to interpretation. I knew I couldn't agree with everything presented therein, so how could I possibly devote my faith to it? The other 20% of the reason I turned away was the type of person most Christians around me were. I won't get into that, though.
You talk a lot about the atheist message, but there really isn't one. Most atheists (and agnostics) don't go around attemping to convert others to STOP believing. Would it surprise you to know that, although I've been agnostic for years, I actually have part of a degree finished in Religion? Actually, I find religion, all religions, to be fascinating. I have studied dozens of beliefs systems, and have yet to find one that I can unquestioningly devote myself to, so I decided to learn more about them. Eventually, I decided that religious studies weren't actually where I wanted to be, but I did spend a good portion of my life on them, and I am quite knowledgable about them. As opposed to the atheists and agnostics I've known, whose beliefs i usually don't discover until I've known them for quite sometime, I have been hassled and even harassed and threatened by members of the Christian offshoots trying to convert me many times during my life. What sort of message is that?
I didn't say noone else had not had any bad experiences. I pointed out what happened to me and what I did about it. I also stated that changing when the times are good would be hypocritical, so I won't.
I never asked you to bleed for anybody. If you are agnostic or atheist, then this is all you have. Unfortunately that would be too depressing for me, but I was wondering what if anything you are doing to better all that you have. I don't care who for, I was just wondering what someone who believes that there is no God thinks is worth committing their time in heaven to.
I also don't agree with everything the bible says, but I don't worship the bible.
Arguing with other people about your beliefs is the same as attempted conversion, if it is not I don't know what is. I don't suppose you do it malitiously, it is merely human nature to argue your point of view.
- Sep 07, 2005
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Quote by programzeroI'm only 16! I can only live my life. It takes humanity to solve humanity's problems. Some of the biggest figures in history have people behind them with their full support.
Still no exscuse. If all you can do is "live your life" then maybe atheism is suited to you. Besides you are part of humanity.
Quote by programzeroReally? You think so? Well, let's read a quote from the bible that I have found.
"When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you are entering to occupy and drives out many nations before youâ??Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations more powerful than youâ??when the Lord your God delivers them into your power and you defeat them, you must put them to death. You must not make a treaty with them or spare them. You must not intermarry with them, neither giving your daughters to their sons nor taking their daughters for your sons; if you do, they will draw your sons away from the Lord and make them worship other gods. Then the Lord will be angry with you and will quickly destroy you. But this is what you must do to them: pull down their altars, break their sacred pillars, hack down their sacred poles and destroy their idols by fire, for you are a people holy to the Lord your god; the Lord your God chose you out of all nations on earth to be his special possessions."
Deuteronomy 7:1-6
Sounds like a great lesson to teach to people. Young Christians will learn about committing genocide. That's a great lesson. Thank you God! :)Sorry, that is old testament, and merely an attempt by the jews to preserve their heritage. I don't worship the bible, and I didn't say it was perfect. Nor do I proclaim that looking out for myself is perfect either.
Quote by programzeroOkay, I'll tell you what. If a terrorist attack ever affects us both committed by a man that has declared a 'Jehad' on other religions, I'll gratefully take that ambulance ride to the nearest hospital and be helped by science and you can get on your knees and pray that that infection doesn't spread to vital organs. Don't worry, you'll be fine. Your god will help you.
Wow, that was ugly. I don't believe I wished any harm on you. Besides extremist islamist have declared war on the US, not on christianity. The extremist ones do hate christians, but that is another story. I've worked for a muslim, and he even gave me a copy of the koran. I've read probably a third of it. I don't agree with it, but I don't despise them for it either. He was very upset by violent islamist, and professed that his religion was not violent.
Well, there is no evidence that the Big Bang occured but it is certainly the most plausible theory.
Sorry their is evidence. They have actually measured radio interference that is everywhere in the universe and came from the big bang.
Quote by ProgramZEROYou may not be an Atheist but that does not concern me. I'm not gonna persecute you if you don't think like me, unlike a Christian.
Sounds like persecution to me.
I wasn't persecuting anyone. I'm just saying that Christians aren't very tolerant of Atheists, Jews, inter-racial couples, or homo-sexuals.
I don't care what you do, it is your business. I was legitimately trying to find some answers in the beginning, about what the author of this thread thought was a worthy cause to take up his time. I thought it would be interesting, since he doesn't have to do anything to earn rewards in the afterlife.
- Sep 07, 2005
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muyojoe: I still maintain that I'm not trying to convert anyone. There's a difference between arguing your beliefs in an attempt to get someone else to adapt them, and stating your beliefs as a point of interest, answering questions about them, and defending them. I honestly don't want you to convert to agnosticism or atheism if that's not what makes you happy. I'm not out to change your mind or save your soul. Think about it; if I were trying to convert you, what would my motivation be?
No, I'm not from Switzerland. It's a statement on my religious beliefs. It's....well, look, it's just too much to explain here, alright?
- Sep 07, 2005
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Hi, I used to be an aethiest, but realised that being an agnostic suited me better, since I can't prove nor disprove the existence of god, however until I have proof, to me, god doesn't exist. A lot of my friends are not religious but they believe in god, while some are religious. Reading previously, it does seem that people have labelled a whole religious group "bad", which is unfair I believe.
Anyway, I have a question for "the aethesit". If you cannot disprove there is god, or any supreme being, then how can u say there "isn't" a god?
- Sep 07, 2005
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Quote by WiseSalesmanmuyojoe: I still maintain that I'm not trying to convert anyone. There's a difference between arguing your beliefs in an attempt to get someone else to adapt them, and stating your beliefs as a point of interest, answering questions about them, and defending them. I honestly don't want you to convert to agnosticism or atheism if that's not what makes you happy. I'm not out to change your mind or save your soul. Think about it; if I were trying to convert you, what would my motivation be?
Unfortunately you place conversion in a bad light with your previous experiences. It is not a bad thing to convert anyone to anything. If you are professing (stating them as a point of interest) your beliefs then you are trying, albeit passively. Your motivation in this case, would be any humans to have others share their experiences with you and your beliefs. I don't mind. Personally I think that is how you should convert people. You just lead by expample, and if they ask you tell them. If they don't, you don't. I believe these people who think they should go "witness" and knock on your door are misguided. You can believe you are not, and I can see you doing what I do to convert someone. This is not impossible, it is merely a pov difference.
- Sep 07, 2005
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Man, the quotes are really getting messed up in this thread ey? Oh well.
Quote by viktorvonrussia
Quote by ProgramZEROI wasn't persecuting anyone. I'm just saying that Christians aren't very tolerant of Atheists, Jews, inter-racial couples, or homo-sexuals.
That statement is as ridiculous as saying that Athiests are amoral heathens who don't care about people.
Hear hear!
Quote by muyojoe
Quote by ProgramZEROWell, there is no evidence that the Big Bang occured but it is certainly the most plausible theory.
Sorry their is evidence. They have actually measured radio interference that is everywhere in the universe and came from the big bang.
That's not necessarily proof positive, though it does support the theory. To my mind, the question is more big bang vs. others, not big bang vs. creationism. Even if God created the world in an instant, as-is, he made it with a history, & that history includes something along the lines of the big bang.
Quote by viktorvonrussia
Quote by ProgramZEROIn general, it's true. Christians aren't very tolerant of people who don't believe in Christianity. You don't see Atheists gassing Jews in chambers or flying planes into buildings. Christians blame 911 and Katrina on gays.
Geez, what kind of Christians do YOU hang out with? I've never even heard of blaming 9/11 on gays, of all people. Those Christians are the radical ones. And by nature, radicals are more outspoken, so that's what you hear on the news and whatever. You never hear from the Christians who don't blame natural disasters on alternative lifestyles. It doesn't necessarily mean that most Christians feel that way. And could you at least say "Some Christians..." when you make statements like that? It seems very close-minded to say that everyone with such beliefs is like this. That's where stereotypes come from.
It wasn't Christianity that made Hitler gas the Jews, it was social tendancies & elitist attitudes. Forget your stupid conspiriacy theories about why the Holocaust occured, & read some history. (I'll just throw in an interesting tidbit here: Hitler may have been a monster, but Stalin was worse, & at least Hitler fulfilled his election promises, lowered inflation & eliminated unemployment - it was an extreme socialist party after all, apart from the psycho angle.) Incidentally I'm sure there were some athiests among the Third Reich. They weren't a 'Christian' party as such; religion was not the basis for their having been a party.
Oh... one other thing... what's Katrina? Am I missing something here?
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by GEEWhy is it that you say that science and religion don't mix? Remember, it is the people who use their religion to accomplish their own selfish goals.
They don't. Some of religion's theories contradict that which science tells us.
You say 'religion's theories' as if 'religion' is one single entity. It's not, it's many different entities, with many conflicting beliefs. And since I only really know about Christianity in real depth, I'll talk about it: There is only one true core tenet to Christianity, & that is 'accept Jesus.' The theology part is open to debate among anyone with half a brain m'kay? 'Seven days' isn't necessarily literal, & could describe the basic stages, they match up well. Translation is a factor too, as well as editing & stuff.
Quote by ProgramZERONow just because you are not a Xenophobe doesn't disprove the fact that, in general, Christians are anti-semitic. Anti-semitism was started when Christianity was trying to force Jews to convert. Jews, Christians, and Muslims have a very hard time getting along. Atheists, in general, care not if you're a Jew or a Muslim. Atheists have no religion.
Anti-semitism was started partly by the idea that it was the Jews who killed Jesus, true. But that doesn't make Christians anti-semitic. That's a personal choice, not related to true Christianity (by which I mean accepting Jesus as your saviour). Most Christians are not. Also, atheists do have a religion. Religion means to 'bind thought' or to 'control thought' - atheism is the determined belief that there is no god. It fits. What atheists don't have is a god in their religion... atheism is a religion, but it's not a faith. There's a difference. I'll go into that more if you want. Christianity is a faith, it's just that there's a basically irrelevant religion wrapped around it. The religious part matters, but ultimately Jesus doesn't care about it.
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by FredGregNow, my question to the Atheist: do you really think science & religion are mutually exclusive? I know of at least one mainstream religion that isn't... your favourite, Christianity. Not if any real thought & understanding of both is put in anyway. Sure they're incompatible if you take every word in the Bible literally (which is stupid - if you do that you're going against what Jesus himself is reported to have said, in that very book).
They are incompatible because science and religion have disagreed in some of the theories that both sides have put forward. The story of Adam and Eve contradicts the theory of evolution. And if you shouldn't take literally every word in the bible, then how the hell will you know what to take serious and what to ignore? It's all a load of crap in my opinion.
Genesis doesn't really contradict evolution unless you take it word for word. It's easy to interpret it to fit. I'm glad you didn't say 'evolution shows there can't be a god,' because I would have had to go off at you... very simply, it does not. It's a mechanism. I don't know what you think there... but I'll just make it clear to anyone reading this, evolution does not preclude the existence of a god. If you think it does, go learn what evolution really is & says. OK back to ProgramZERO - it's pretty simple, you don't take any of the heavy theological stuff word for word. It's not 100% reliable, don't take it as such. The only thing, I repeat the only thing you have to take on faith & simply believe is that Jesus is the son of God, part of the Trinity, who made this universe (somehow, you don't have to believe the way it says in the Bible) & died to forgive us our sins. The resurrection is pretty fundamental too, but that's a faith part rather than a 'prove it' part. Everything else is debatable, believe what you will & you can still be a Christian, despite what some Christians will say (the non-thinkers).
Quote by ProgramZEROAnd I would like to say that I don't hate Christianity. I hate what it does to people. Some people just make some stupid decisions based on their religion. People are refusing to use condoms in the age of HIV and AIDS infections just because their religion says it. Christianity isn't helping in fighting the AIDS epidemic. People protest abortion and at the same time holy figures preach against condoms. We are heavily overpopulated and women are being forced into motherhood. The troubling part is that this is most common in poor countries where the larger the population, the harder it is to lift onesself out of poverty.
Again, you're taking the actions of some & saying they're all like that. Granted a lot are, especially in the US bible belt (I assume that's where you are?), but it's not part of Christianity, they just use Christianity as an excuse. They might believe it is part, but that's just because they're stupid & predjudiced, not because of Christianity. Like Islam, a lot of the crappy stuff about Christianity is actually cultural & just gets lumped in. Catholics are terrible for that... load of pagan shit lumped in - do you know how the Romans assimilated conquered territory? They made it more like them, & made themselves more like it. The same happened with the Catholic Church.
The condom thing is just because some petty man in a stupid white cap is looked up to by half the world's Christians, because like everyone else, they don't think & so they just go with what they've been taught. You can guess who I mean, right? As soon as a Pope says that condoms are OK, people will begin to accept them, though habits take time to change. The Pope is a Jewish/Roman carryover, he really doesn't matter, & shouldn't be put between God & the individual. This is basic theology here. Abortion is a tricky issue regardless of religion - it depends on your ideas re killing, when you're a person rather than a lump of moving meat, stuff like that. Religious ideas may come into it, but you can fairly easily find pro-abortion Christians & right-to-lifer non-Christians, you just have to ask them (that might be a bad idea if you don't want to argue though :P).
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by FredGregThen there's always the possibility that a divine being caused that big bang or whichever you choose. Apparently I'm siding with the US neo-con Christian Right here, which I don't like, but I came to that conclusion myself years ago.
I don't think that any of the gods man has created in the past is correct. IF there is an all-powerful being, I severely doubt that past religions could be correct. In the bible, it is said that god created the Earth in 7 days, if I remember correctly. Shortly after this, the Adam and Eve story comes into play. Science says that the Earth is about 4,570,000,000 years old and that the human race is only about 400-250 thousand years old. There's an obvious inconsistency.
Yeah, but like I said above, the way the Bible is currently read & interpreted says that, & even with that out of the way, the text itself, even the oldest versions we have, is not totally reliable. The basic idea is that God created the universe. Think of it this way: the Bible says God created the world, science says how he did it. It's all compatible if you really understand both... sorry, but it's obvious you don't know enough about Christian theology to qualify there. It also sounds like you just believe science as a matter of course - that age to the universe changes all the time, & the methods they use are usually flawed. Of course it's damn old, billions of years, no question unless you're just refusing to accept it, but they can't be that sure of how old. 17 billion at least is pretty much necessary, because we can detect quasars 17 billion light years away... that suggests more than 17 billion to me, actually.
One more thing, & ProgramZERO, this isn't meant as an insult, it is honest advice, though I know it's coming out flamey: If you want to look informed, you have to be able to spell the 'tricky' words more than the simple ones. It's 'jihad,' not 'jehad.' Whether you're informed or not, you lose a lot of credibility.
- Sep 07, 2005
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