hey wisesalesman how can you say these last two years have been hell on earth for you if you dont believe in god?
hell is something that has only been talked about by religion
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¨take a good look, this the body of a sinner¨
- Sep 07, 2005
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hey just to get one thing straight i'm not trying to convert anyone i dont worship the bible i dont believe in saints such as moses or other people
i just belive that there is someoner higher than everyone in this earth who can punish you for your sins
so if you kotetsu say that religious people are idiots for believing in moses a man who had other reasons for keeping girlsa alive i dont believe in him¨take a good look, this the body of a sinner¨
- Sep 07, 2005
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Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by viktorvonrussiaWell, another thing that makes me think someone or something was behind the Big Bang is that everything seems to have order and purpose. From the structure of molecules to natural selection, there seems to be reasons that things are the way they are. If there is no will behind reality, that would mean that everything is random, wouldn't it?
Well this is one of the questions that haunts us all. There is no answer to such a question. Science tries to provide explanation to an overwhelming question. Religion just conjures up an omnipotent being but never provides evidence to prove the character they have just come up with. If there is truly a force that meant for everything to make sense, I think that one must then prove that that force is a god that had been created by a religion of a past civilization. In other words, I think that ALL religions ARE WRONG.
Well, if you think of the order and balance that everything has, and how delecate this balance is, you come to a conclusion. If the earth did not have this balance, we would all be dead. This planet was one of the lucky ones to be able to support life. In other words, there could be hundreds of millions of other planets that did not fare as well in their history, but we were one of the planets that just so happened to have exactly what life needed to flourish. This planet is special only in that way. We are bound to find other life on other planets, and when we do, did god make that life also? ~_~
And ray, if you don't believe in Moses, I guess you don't believe in the 10 commandments either, because he had a little role in writing those(according to the bible). So in other words, you sin left and right, so I will see you in your imaginary hell.
"Shed no tears for me. My glory lives forever!"- Sep 07, 2005
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Quote by viktorvonrussiaI'm not saying that any existing religion is "right." What I'm saying is that there is something out there that set everything in motion because there is purpose to the way things are structured. That force could be something that nobody has yet thought of.
Would you happen to know what this force might be?
Quote by viktorvonrussiaGeez, what kind of Christians do YOU hang out with? I've never even heard of blaming 9/11 on gays, of all people. Those Christians are the radical ones. And by nature, radicals are more outspoken, so that's what you hear on the news and whatever. You never hear from the Christians who don't blame natural disasters on alternative lifestyles. It doesn't necessarily mean that most Christians feel that way. And could you at least say "Some Christians..." when you make statements like that? It seems very close-minded to say that everyone with such beliefs is like this. That's where stereotypes come from.
I don't have to add 'some' to anything. I think people are smart enough to know that generalizations don't apply to everyone.
Quote by sadotsuCan I join in? Just to level things out a bit... everyone's getting quite defensive.
Sure. Anyone can join. I love members. *sweating profusely* (Sweet delicious level points.) All are welcome. (Sweet, delectable, points.)
Quote by muyojoe
Quote by programzeroI'm only 16! I can only live my life. It takes humanity to solve humanity's problems. Some of the biggest figures in history have people behind them with their full support.
Still no exscuse. If all you can do is "live your life" then maybe atheism is suited to you. Besides you are part of humanity.Okay then Muyojoe. I want you to make a list of all the things that I can do, a simple person at the age of 16, to help humanity. How can I end war, poverty, hunger, crime? I want you to list everything.
Quote by muyojoe"When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you are entering to occupy and drives out many nations before youâ??Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations more powerful than youâ??when the Lord your God delivers them into your power and you defeat them, you must put them to death. You must not make a treaty with them or spare them. You must not intermarry with them, neither giving your daughters to their sons nor taking their daughters for your sons; if you do, they will draw your sons away from the Lord and make them worship other gods. Then the Lord will be angry with you and will quickly destroy you. But this is what you must do to them: pull down their altars, break their sacred pillars, hack down their sacred poles and destroy their idols by fire, for you are a people holy to the Lord your god; the Lord your God chose you out of all nations on earth to be his special possessions."
Deuteronomy 7:1-6
Sounds like a great lesson to teach to people. Young Christians will learn about committing genocide. That's a great lesson. Thank you God! :)
Sorry, that is old testament, and merely an attempt by the jews to preserve their heritage. I don't worship the bible, and I didn't say it was perfect. Nor do I proclaim that looking out for myself is perfect either.Yes but you said Christianity is better than Atheism which I disagree. This is contained in the bible and Christianity is based on the bible which consists of the old and the new testament.
Quote by muyojoeWow, that was ugly. I don't believe I wished any harm on you. Besides extremist islamist have declared war on the US, not on christianity. The extremist ones do hate christians, but that is another story. I've worked for a muslim, and he even gave me a copy of the koran. I've read probably a third of it. I don't agree with it, but I don't despise them for it either. He was very upset by violent islamist, and professed that his religion was not violent.
Is that why history has recorded religious wars between Muslim and non-Muslim nations? In response to your post, I will respond with this website. http://biblia.com/islam/war.htm
Quote by envisionAnyway, I have a question for "the aethesit". If you cannot disprove there is god, or any supreme being, then how can u say there "isn't" a god?
Because no one has shown me any evidence that supports the existence of a supreme being. And you can't prove a negative. Christianity has to prove that God exists. The burden of proof rests in the hands of the accuser.
Quote by FredGregMan, the quotes are really getting messed up in this thread ey? Oh well.
Quote by viktorvonrussiaIt wasn't Christianity that made Hitler gas the Jews, it was social tendancies & elitist attitudes. Forget your stupid conspiriacy theories about why the Holocaust occured, & read some history. (I'll just throw in an interesting tidbit here: Hitler may have been a monster, but Stalin was worse, & at least Hitler fulfilled his election promises, lowered inflation & eliminated unemployment - it was an extreme socialist party after all, apart from the psycho angle.) Incidentally I'm sure there were some athiests among the Third Reich. They weren't a 'Christian' party as such; religion was not the basis for their having been a party.
Social tendencies? Elitist attitudes? Social tendencies and Elitist attitudes didn't kill the Jews. It was because, around the time Hitler was born, anti-Semitism was deeply ingrained in his reigion and culture. Europe had been ruled by Christianity for ages. I know more about Hitler than most people. I know these things and I can tell you what I think is the origin of Hitler's anti-Semitism. Christianity plays a key role.
Quote by FredGregYou say 'religion's theories' as if 'religion' is one single entity. It's not, it's many different entities, with many conflicting beliefs. And since I only really know about Christianity in real depth, I'll talk about it: There is only one true core tenet to Christianity, & that is 'accept Jesus.' The theology part is open to debate among anyone with half a brain m'kay? 'Seven days' isn't necessarily literal, & could describe the basic stages, they match up well. Translation is a factor too, as well as editing & stuff.
When I say religion, I mean all religions. Science is used everywhere. Everyone relies on science, no matter what religion you are. Why? Science is the study of what actually is, not what is believed to be. And if the bible is so unreliable, then why should one use it? Why should I read a book that is so unreliable? How do I know what is literal and what is not.
Quote by FredGreg
Quote by ProgramZEROAnd I would like to say that I don't hate Christianity. I hate what it does to people. Some people just make some stupid decisions based on their religion. People are refusing to use condoms in the age of HIV and AIDS infections just because their religion says it. Christianity isn't helping in fighting the AIDS epidemic. People protest abortion and at the same time holy figures preach against condoms. We are heavily overpopulated and women are being forced into motherhood. The troubling part is that this is most common in poor countries where the larger the population, the harder it is to lift onesself out of poverty.
Again, you're taking the actions of some & saying they're all like that. Granted a lot are, especially in the US bible belt (I assume that's where you are?), but it's not part of Christianity, they just use Christianity as an excuse. They might believe it is part, but that's just because they're stupid & predjudiced, not because of Christianity. Like Islam, a lot of the crappy stuff about Christianity is actually cultural & just gets lumped in. Catholics are terrible for that... load of pagan shit lumped in - do you know how the Romans assimilated conquered territory? They made it more like them, & made themselves more like it. The same happened with the Catholic Church.
The condom thing is just because some petty man in a stupid white cap is looked up to by half the world's Christians, because like everyone else, they don't think & so they just go with what they've been taught. You can guess who I mean, right? As soon as a Pope says that condoms are OK, people will begin to accept them, though habits take time to change. The Pope is a Jewish/Roman carryover, he really doesn't matter, & shouldn't be put between God & the individual. This is basic theology here. Abortion is a tricky issue regardless of religion - it depends on your ideas re killing, when you're a person rather than a lump of moving meat, stuff like that. Religious ideas may come into it, but you can fairly easily find pro-abortion Christians & right-to-lifer non-Christians, you just have to ask them (that might be a bad idea if you don't want to argue though :P).Yes but people follow this advice BECAUSE of their religion. They are threatened with hell if they don't. And I am pro-abortion. I think that we have enough, if not, too many people. Christians do the same thing about abortion. They threaten with eternal damnation.
Quote by FredGregYeah, but like I said above, the way the Bible is currently read & interpreted says that, & even with that out of the way, the text itself, even the oldest versions we have, is not totally reliable. The basic idea is that God created the universe. Think of it this way: the Bible says God created the world, science says how he did it. It's all compatible if you really understand both....
I'm gonna say it again and I want you to memorize this sentence. If the bible is so unreliable, then how do we know what to believe and what not to believe? And no, science simply states how it happened. It never says that God did it. And about God creating the universe, if science says how the universe was created, can you prove that it was God that was responsible? The bible provides no evidence that supports the theory that God created the universe. The bible provides no evidence that God exists.
Jehad, Jihad, whatever...thanks though.
Quote by Rayito16i just belive that there is someoner higher than everyone in this earth who can punish you for your sins
Yes but you have no way of knowing what this higher power might be and even less of what that power considers a sin. You can't prove the existence of anything any religion or belief says.
Quote by KoutetsuWell, if you think of the order and balance that everything has, and how delecate this balance is, you come to a conclusion. If the earth did not have this balance, we would all be dead. This planet was one of the lucky ones to be able to support life. In other words, there could be hundreds of millions of other planets that did not fare as well in their history, but we were one of the planets that just so happened to have exactly what life needed to flourish. This planet is special only in that way. We are bound to find other life on other planets, and when we do, did god make that life also? ~_~
Isn't it funny how God has allowed us to possess the power to destroy the Earth? We could wipe out the entire human race if we wished it. His life's work, blown to $#!7. His creation created in his image, blown away by a couple hundred nuclear missiles.
NOTE: I've noticed many of you pointing out that I said the Big Bang had no evidence behind it. I'd like to clear that up because when I stated this, I had forgotten that there is evidence that SUPPORTS the Big Bang theory. Sorry about that. But in reality, there is no way to know for sure. The Big Bang is the most believable though.
Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.
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Quote by programzeroOkay then Muyojoe. I want you to make a list of all the things that I can do, a simple person at the age of 16, to help humanity. How can I end war, poverty, hunger, crime? I want you to list everything.
I never said you had to fix the whole world. Your signature says that, "heaven is something for which we should work now," as an atheist. I asked how you are doing this, and you aren't. If you need help, then I am more than willing to give you a link back.
http://www.lbvision.org/newsletter/02april_teens.html
Quote by programzeroI'll gratefully take that ambulance ride to the nearest hospital and be helped by science and you can get on your knees and pray that that infection doesn't spread to vital organs. Don't worry, you'll be fine. Your god will help you.
This is a vicious attack and unwarranted. I go to the doctor all the time. I actually believe that God does not intervene in my daily life. How can I glorify God if he has to fix everything in my life everyday. There is no way to believe that science and God are contradictory. I'm afraid our science is not quite advanced as we would like to believe. It was only a few hundred years ago that we believed the earth was flat. We have only been on this planet for a few hundred thousand to million years.
Quote by programzeroYes but you said Christianity is better than Atheism which I disagree. This is contained in the bible and Christianity is based on the bible which consists of the old and the new testament.
No I didn't. I said that religions encourage you to do good things for others on this world. This was in response to your denial of your own signature.
Quote by programzeroThis is contained in the bible and Christianity is based on the bible which consists of the old and the new testament.
I realize that now you want to tell me how to be a christian. Like I said, "I don't worship the bible." Christianity is supposed to be centered on the works of Christ, whose teachings are in the new testament. Science also thought that the earth was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, and that man couldn't travel over 60mph or he would die. I like science, and I don't claim that science is false just because it has had some false things in it. One day we will prove einsteins theory of realtivity wrong, I believe. There is an old saying, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water."
Quote by programzeroI had forgotten that there is evidence that supports the Big Bang theory. Sorry about that. But in reality, there is no way to know for sure.
You contradict yourself here.
- Sep 08, 2005
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Quote by ProgramZEROWould you happen to know what this force might be?
I believe that force is what we call God.Quote by ProgramZEROI don't have to add 'some' to anything. I think people are smart enough to know that generalizations don't apply to everyone.
And people who are smart enough to know that generalizations don't apply to everyone are smart enough to write out "some." Is it so hard to type out an extra two or three words? It's really irritating when someone makes a generalization, and when he's called on it, he says "That's not what I meant."Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by viktorvonrussiaIt wasn't Christianity that made Hitler gas the Jews, it was social tendancies & elitist attitudes. Forget your stupid conspiriacy theories about why the Holocaust occured, & read some history. (I'll just throw in an interesting tidbit here: Hitler may have been a monster, but Stalin was worse, & at least Hitler fulfilled his election promises, lowered inflation & eliminated unemployment - it was an extreme socialist party after all, apart from the psycho angle.) Incidentally I'm sure there were some athiests among the Third Reich. They weren't a 'Christian' party as such; religion was not the basis for their having been a party.
That wasn't my quote. Just thought I'd point that out.
Quote by ProgramZEROWhen I say religion, I mean all religions. Science is used everywhere. Everyone relies on science, no matter what religion you are. Why? Science is the study of what actually is, not what is believed to be. And if the bible is so unreliable, then why should one use it? Why should I read a book that is so unreliable? How do I know what is literal and what is not.
The way I see it, people follow the Bible because it's the best source they have. And I wouldn't say the Bible is unreliable as much as just very hard to interpret. But that's why people say they "don't worship the Bible." They worship God and follow the commandments He set.Quote by ProgramZEROYes but people follow this advice because of their religion. They are threatened with hell if they don't.
By that logic, you're saying that religion is responsible for the existence of morality.Quote by ProgramZEROAnd I am pro-abortion. I think that we have enough, if not, too many people. Christians do the same thing about abortion. They threaten with eternal damnation.
Or maybe they just think killing babies is wrong. Just like many Athiests I know are against abortion because they think killing babies is wrong. Just because someone's religious doesn't mean all their decisions are based on fear of hell. And just so we're clear, I'm pro-life and pro-choice.And I've noticed, ProgramZERO, that you like to use phrases like "we can't be sure" a whole lot. There's a reason people use the word "faith" when they talk about religion. And in my opinion, Christianity is infinitely better than being an Athiest just because Christians work towards something and anticipate the afterlife. When you're like 90 and hooked up to a respirator and lying in your own filth, it'd be nice to have something to hang on to other than "I'm going to die soon."
"It is especially important to encourage unorthodox thinking when the situation is critical: At such moments every new word and fresh thought is more precious than gold. Indeed, people must not be deprived of the right to think their own thoughts. "
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DaemonPhyreWyrm
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Wow...so much mudslinging in only 2 days...Anyways, hi! I'm an atheist. I don't believe in miracles, dieties, or any of that malarky. How was the universe created? I don't really care, it's not a pressing issue to me. I think I's god for you to express your opinions beliefs in an open forum, and that you make for the most part decent arguements on your behalf, they will become better when refined through wisdom that comes with age.
Weeeell...I'm just rambling, but I would like to respond to a quote:
Quote by muyojoe
Quote by programzeroI had forgotten that there is evidence that supports the Big Bang theory. Sorry about that. But in reality, there is no way to know for sure.
You contradict yourself here.How is it a condradiction? There is evidence that, as our forum creator stated, supports the theory. He doesn't use the word "proof" anyhere in there, so there fore it isn't a contradiction.
I am also pro-abortion. It's not like women go out, get themselves pregnant, then get an abortion for the thrill of it. Abortion is no different than deciding to have a limb amputated. It's a life-changing, personal, emotional, and painful experience.
As to the issues over ProgramZERO's quote, WTF is wrong with you? It's simply a quote that he agrees with, not tenents by which h lives his life. Nowhere in the quote did I get the impression that the quoter was trying to make the world a better plce by following the quote.
I have heard soooooo many christian persons I know blame the 9/11 disaster on the gays, and I'm sure in the coming weeks I'll hear of how Hurricane Katrina was their fault too.
I believe science is superior to blind, stupid faith because it offers something more tangible than "it is god's will" or "god will fix it for us!" Science at least tries to answer questions.
Aetheism gives on the freedom to believe what they want to believe, and not what some old man in a funny white hat tells us is right (I rather dislike Catholics).
How is god so beneficial and loving, and yet, he smites all these people, tells his "chosen" people that they're free to kill and rape everyone else, and sends the flawed (yet perfect) images of himself to and eternity of suffering? If god really is so caring, then the bible must have misquoted quite a bit, in which case, it's just chock-full of errors. Therefore, if the bible is the best proof that there is a god, I'll stick to my whole "logic" and "proof" beliefs. <(-------i have no idea what this is about, i'm just ranting again, eh?
- Sep 08, 2005
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I no longer have the time I used to to devote to this, so I've skipped the posts which are not directed specifically at me.
Quote by muyojoe
Quote by WiseSalesmanmuyojoe: I still maintain that I'm not trying to convert anyone. There's a difference between arguing your beliefs in an attempt to get someone else to adapt them, and stating your beliefs as a point of interest, answering questions about them, and defending them. I honestly don't want you to convert to agnosticism or atheism if that's not what makes you happy. I'm not out to change your mind or save your soul. Think about it; if I were trying to convert you, what would my motivation be?
Unfortunately you place conversion in a bad light with your previous experiences. It is not a bad thing to convert anyone to anything. If you are professing (stating them as a point of interest) your beliefs then you are trying, albeit passively. Your motivation in this case, would be any humans to have others share their experiences with you and your beliefs. I don't mind. Personally I think that is how you should convert people. You just lead by expample, and if they ask you tell them. If they don't, you don't. I believe these people who think they should go "witness" and knock on your door are misguided. You can believe you are not, and I can see you doing what I do to convert someone. This is not impossible, it is merely a pov difference.
There is a difference in intent and a difference in scale. I've met women who have talked to me about their taste in men. Does that automatically mean they're trying to get me to change over and start dating men? Somehow, I don't think so. Regardless of whether you believe it or not, it is possible to state an opinion without attempting to change someone else's. That's what we call discussion. It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle
Quote by rayito16hey wisesalesman how can you say these last two years have been hell on earth for you if you dont believe in god? hell is something that has only been talked about by religion
Oh, you have got to be kidding me. First of all, this statement is akin to someone at McDonald's saying "this tastes like crap" and you popping out of nowhere to exclaim "How do you know what crap tastes like? Have you ever eaten it?" Second, ...
hell
noun
2 a : a place or state of misery, torment, or wickedness <war is hell -- W. T. Sherman>Would you prefer me to instead say "these last two years have been a state of extreme torment and misery for me?" It would mean the same thing. Except there's no reason to type all of that out, because there's ONE WORD that means that. Hell. That's the power of vocabulary.
Lastly, if you think religion is the only place where hell has ever been talked about or visualized, you're absolutely wrong. Hell is talked about in popular and classic fiction, non-religious music, films, art and all sorts of other expressions all the time. Everyone, regardless of whether you're religious or not, has some concept in their head, a picture, of what hell is like.
All this is not even to mention that, even if you were correct in the misconception that the only way to have a concept of hell is to subscribe to a religion, it would still be undermined by the fact that I spent the first fifteen years of my life as a devoted Christian.
No, I'm not from Switzerland. It's a statement on my religious beliefs. It's....well, look, it's just too much to explain here, alright?
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Quote by DaemonPhyreWyrmHow is it a condradiction? There is evidence that, as our forum creator stated, supports the theory. He doesn't use the word "proof" anyhere in there, so there fore it isn't a contradiction.
Fine, I'll stoop so low as to supply you a definition, if you are too lazy to look it up.
evidence
n 1: your basis for belief or disbelief; knowledge on which to
base belief; "the evidence that smoking causes lung
cancer is very compelling" [syn: grounds]Quote by DaemonPhyreWyrmWTF is wrong with you?
Wow, I'm glad you are here to add intelligent conversation.
Quote by DaemonPhyreWyrmI have heard soooooo many christian persons I know blame the 9/11 disaster on the gays, and I'm sure in the coming weeks I'll hear of how Hurricane Katrina was their fault too.
I have no idea what you are talking about. If they have, and I haven't heard it, I don't care because it is stupid. What has that got to do with me. I haven't talked about 9/11 or gays.
Quote by DaemonPhyreWyrmI believe science is superior to blind, stupid faith because it offers something more tangible than "it is god's will" or "god will fix it for us!" Science at least tries to answer questions.
Yeah, I already answered this.
Quote by wisesalesmanDoes that automatically mean they're trying to get me to change over and start dating men?
No, and I'm insulted you asked. In that case she would be attempting to convince you of an opinion or pov on men, not to date them. I'm done with this question. I already said we just have a different pov on it, so why are you beating a dead horse.
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Whoa! Just before I post this, I'd like to say sorry for the massive size. If I combined some of what I said into one lot I could cut off a bit, but I don' think it's worth the effort - I wouldn't get that much length off.
Quote by ME!Oh... one other thing... what's Katrina? Am I missing something here?
Man... what a faux pas! I honestly couldn't work it out. Didn't realise until I heard the hurricane mentioned on the radio news in the morning.
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by muyojoe"When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you are entering to occupy and drives out many nations before you�¢??Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations more powerful than you�¢??when the Lord your God delivers them into your power and you defeat them, you must put them to death. You must not make a treaty with them or spare them. You must not intermarry with them, neither giving your daughters to their sons nor taking their daughters for your sons; if you do, they will draw your sons away from the Lord and make them worship other gods. Then the Lord will be angry with you and will quickly destroy you. But this is what you must do to them: pull down their altars, break their sacred pillars, hack down their sacred poles and destroy their idols by fire, for you are a people holy to the Lord your god; the Lord your God chose you out of all nations on earth to be his special possessions."
Deuteronomy 7:1-6
Sounds like a great lesson to teach to people. Young Christians will learn about committing genocide. That's a great lesson. Thank you God! :)
Sorry, that is old testament, and merely an attempt by the jews to preserve their heritage. I don't worship the bible, and I didn't say it was perfect. Nor do I proclaim that looking out for myself is perfect either.Yes but you said Christianity is better than Atheism which I disagree. This is contained in the bible and Christianity is based on the bible which consists of the old and the new testament.
Christianity is not based on the Bible. Dump that. The Bible was put together 400 years after Christianity arose, in fact. The gospels were written after too, as guides. They didn't start it either. Jesus' death & resurrection started it; the Old Testament is just the Jewish Torah, & as I've explained earlier & a bit below, that's not totally reliable even though it's important, & the New Testament is a collection of gospels, i.e. letters to various peoples explaining stuff as the writers saw it. Christianity is based on Jesus - you have to experience a relationship with him to know for sure. Whether you believe people do experience that relationship or not (I'm guessing you're the latter?), the statement stands - if you don't experience it, you won't know for sure. The whole Bible is really just a guide, not the basis for the faith.
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by envisionAnyway, I have a question for "the aethesit". If you cannot disprove there is god, or any supreme being, then how can u say there "isn't" a god?
Because no one has shown me any evidence that supports the existence of a supreme being. And you can't prove a negative. Christianity has to prove that God exists. The burden of proof rests in the hands of the accuser.
You can actually prove a negitive... but only when you can disprove the only alternative, which must be mutually exclusive. Nonetheless, you can't prove there isn't any more than we can prove there is. It's 'faith,' remember? The only basis you have to say there isn't is that you can see inconsitencies between religions & science, which as I've said are usually easy to reconcile in some faiths at least. Take the flat world theory... the Catholics didn't like that one bit did they? & they interpreted the Bible to support them. But today, if you tried to make that interpretation you'd be told to shove it by every other Christian out there, right? Right.
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by FredGregIt wasn't Christianity that made Hitler gas the Jews, it was social tendancies & elitist attitudes. Forget your stupid conspiriacy theories about why the Holocaust occured, & read some history. (I'll just throw in an interesting tidbit here: Hitler may have been a monster, but Stalin was worse, & at least Hitler fulfilled his election promises, lowered inflation & eliminated unemployment - it was an extreme socialist party after all, apart from the psycho angle.) Incidentally I'm sure there were some athiests among the Third Reich. They weren't a 'Christian' party as such; religion was not the basis for their having been a party.
Social tendencies? Elitist attitudes? Social tendencies and Elitist attitudes didn't kill the Jews. It was because, around the time Hitler was born, anti-Semitism was deeply ingrained in his reigion and culture. Europe had been ruled by Christianity for ages. I know more about Hitler than most people. I know these things and I can tell you what I think is the origin of Hitler's anti-Semitism. Christianity plays a key role.
The general anti-semitism was a social tendancy. In large part caused by the Jews lending money with interest, which the Catholic Church thought was sinful for a long time, so it is kind of to do with Christianity, but not really. It was a Catholic thing, not a Christian thing. The two are not the same. One is an organisation who ruled much of the known world, one is a faith. I'll leave it to you to match them up. The anti-gay attitude that goes with Christianity isn't part of the real core faith for most people, it's more a cultural attachment & a belief that God doesn't really like homosexuality itself. This discounts the radical nutters of course. The Church had a part in fostering that too, incidentally. The elitism I refer to was the superior attitude they had towards anyone not a straight, blue-eyed, blonde Aryan (that includes Jews, homos, mutants, etc.). It's not truely Christianity that gave Hitler his attitude, the Catholics were the religious part in that (you can probably tell I don't much like the Catholic Church - if not now, by the end of this post if you read it all).
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by FredGregYou say 'religion's theories' as if 'religion' is one single entity. It's not, it's many different entities, with many conflicting beliefs. And since I only really know about Christianity in real depth, I'll talk about it: There is only one true core tenet to Christianity, & that is 'accept Jesus.' The theology part is open to debate among anyone with half a brain m'kay? 'Seven days' isn't necessarily literal, & could describe the basic stages, they match up well. Translation is a factor too, as well as editing & stuff.
When I say religion, I mean all religions. Science is used everywhere. Everyone relies on science, no matter what religion you are. Why? Science is the study of what actually is, not what is believed to be. And if the bible is so unreliable, then why should one use it? Why should I read a book that is so unreliable? How do I know what is literal and what is not.
Still, not all religions can be lumped together, different ones accept different things & rail against different other things. Science is the study of what is believed to be. You can't prove anything beyond doubt. Not really. Introduce yourself to some philosophic works. On the subject of the Bible, you really need to get rid of the idea that Christianity is the Bible... it's not.
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by FredGreg
Quote by ProgramZEROAnd I would like to say that I don't hate Christianity. I hate what it does to people. Some people just make some stupid decisions based on their religion. People are refusing to use condoms in the age of HIV and AIDS infections just because their religion says it. Christianity isn't helping in fighting the AIDS epidemic. People protest abortion and at the same time holy figures preach against condoms. We are heavily overpopulated and women are being forced into motherhood. The troubling part is that this is most common in poor countries where the larger the population, the harder it is to lift onesself out of poverty.
Again, you're taking the actions of some & saying they're all like that. Granted a lot are, especially in the US bible belt (I assume that's where you are?), but it's not part of Christianity, they just use Christianity as an excuse. They might believe it is part, but that's just because they're stupid & predjudiced, not because of Christianity. Like Islam, a lot of the crappy stuff about Christianity is actually cultural & just gets lumped in. Catholics are terrible for that... load of pagan shit lumped in - do you know how the Romans assimilated conquered territory? They made it more like them, & made themselves more like it. The same happened with the Catholic Church.
The condom thing is just because some petty man in a stupid white cap is looked up to by half the world's Christians, because like everyone else, they don't think & so they just go with what they've been taught. You can guess who I mean, right? As soon as a Pope says that condoms are OK, people will begin to accept them, though habits take time to change. The Pope is a Jewish/Roman carryover, he really doesn't matter, & shouldn't be put between God & the individual. This is basic theology here. Abortion is a tricky issue regardless of religion - it depends on your ideas re killing, when you're a person rather than a lump of moving meat, stuff like that. Religious ideas may come into it, but you can fairly easily find pro-abortion Christians & right-to-lifer non-Christians, you just have to ask them (that might be a bad idea if you don't want to argue though :P).
Yes but people follow this advice BECAUSE of their religion. They are threatened with hell if they don't. And I am pro-abortion. I think that we have enough, if not, too many people. Christians do the same thing about abortion. They threaten with eternal damnation.
Yes, they follow the Pope's advice because of their religion, which is different to faith. Not all Catholics are Christian, but Catholicism is definitely a religion. Doesn't mean they believe though, that's where the faith comes in. Not all Christians are Catholic, not all Catholics are Christian, but the two groups do overlap. Catholicism threatens hell if you don't obey the Pope, Christianity doesn't. When the Pope says condoms are OK, non-Catholic Christians will go 'Who cares what you say?,' non-Christian Catholics will do likewise (it's like non-practicing Jews, they don't believe), & Catholic Christians will suddenly lose their reason for not using them, so they'll be open to persuasion on the matter. BTW I agree about over-population. Take the pill, wear the condom, stick the coathanger... OK not that last bit. But abortion properly done, sure. We are not threatened with eternal damnation, that only happens if we don't accept Jesus when we die. No other reason.
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by FredGregYeah, but like I said above, the way the Bible is currently read & interpreted says that, & even with that out of the way, the text itself, even the oldest versions we have, is not totally reliable. The basic idea is that God created the universe. Think of it this way: the Bible says God created the world, science says how he did it. It's all compatible if you really understand both....
I'm gonna say it again and I want you to memorize this sentence. If the bible is so unreliable, then how do we know what to believe and what not to believe? And no, science simply states how it happened. It never says that God did it. And about God creating the universe, if science says how the universe was created, can you prove that it was God that was responsible? The bible provides no evidence that supports the theory that God created the universe. The bible provides no evidence that God exists.
It was never meant to. Some Christians might take it that way, but they should do some research into how it came to be one piece, how each book & gospel came to be, & why each was included. You've got to take it in the context of the time. If God told Moses about evolution & the big bang & star lifecycles, do you think anyone would have coped with the idea? No, of course they wouldn't have. So he gave an 'I made this world' answer instead. Which doesn't preclude the stuff I just mentioned. Different treatment of the sexes? Cultural again. Possibly thrown in by the men who actually wrote it all down, & probably passed it by word of mouth for a long time first. You can't prove God exists or did it, & you can't prove he doesn't. Very simple concept that, to me at least, but then I've thought about this stuff for a long time. Believe the basic ideas that God exists, that he created the universe somehow, & that Jesus is the son part of the Trinity, took human form, died for us, & was resurrected because the rest of God wanted to. That sort of stuff. The fundamental stuff. It's not that hard to know what, think about it. Oh, & don't believe that God hates gays, I don't. The passages that say so tend to be mistranslations, biased, or just ridiculous (don't pay attention to Leviticus at all - I don't know why the Council of Trent included that book, it's just a bunch of legalistic rubbish thrown together by some group of Pharisees on LSD or something. Honestly it's nuts. Read it if you don't believe me, it's one of the cultural rulebooks for sure). One more thing, I didn't say science said God created the universe, I said science said how he did it - the way it happened, in other words. I'm the one who said he did it. It's just a good way to think of it if you want to reconcile them. Bad phrasing I suppose, but it's punchy so I like it.
Quote by ProgramZEROJehad, Jihad, whatever...thanks though.
You're welcome :) Sorry about the flamey tone; like I said, it wasn't intended that way. It took me years to learn that from my dad, though he emphasised swearing instead of spelling.
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by KoutetsuWell, if you think of the order and balance that everything has, and how delecate this balance is, you come to a conclusion. If the earth did not have this balance, we would all be dead. This planet was one of the lucky ones to be able to support life. In other words, there could be hundreds of millions of other planets that did not fare as well in their history, but we were one of the planets that just so happened to have exactly what life needed to flourish. This planet is special only in that way. We are bound to find other life on other planets, and when we do, did god make that life also? ~_~
Isn't it funny how God has allowed us to possess the power to destroy the Earth? We could wipe out the entire human race if we wished it. His life's work, blown to $#!7. His creation created in his image, blown away by a couple hundred nuclear missiles.
Nice point, but we haven't done it yet, & who says we're his life's work? Given an eternity, there's a fair possibility you'd do more than just one race on one planet in one universe.
Quote by ProgramZERONOTE: I've noticed many of you pointing out that I said the Big Bang had no evidence behind it. I'd like to clear that up because when I stated this, I had forgotten that there is evidence that supports the Big Bang theory. Sorry about that. But in reality, there is no way to know for sure. The Big Bang is the most believable though.
Indeed it is. Since this has been bugging me since the big bang was first mentioned on this thread, have you ever taken a look at string theory? Take some time to check it out, it's well worth it. Besides, people attacking the big bang are usually only doing it because they think it precludes the existence of God. Which it doesn't, so yeah, there's not much point fighting the idea.
Quote by muyojoe
Quote by ProgramZEROI'll gratefully take that ambulance ride to the nearest hospital and be helped by science and you can get on your knees and pray that that infection doesn't spread to vital organs. Don't worry, you'll be fine. Your god will help you.
This is a vicious attack and unwarranted. I go to the doctor all the time. I actually believe that God does not intervene in my daily life. How can I glorify God if he has to fix everything in my life everyday. There is no way to believe that science and God are contradictory. I'm afraid our science is not quite advanced as we would like to believe. It was only a few hundred years ago that we believed the earth was flat. We have only been on this planet for a few hundred thousand to million years.
I agree here... I actually have trouble explaining this attitude to a lot of people.
Quote by muyojoe
Quote by programzeroThis is contained in the bible and Christianity is based on the bible which consists of the old and the new testament.
I realize that now you want to tell me how to be a christian. Like I said, "I don't worship the bible." Christianity is supposed to be centered on the works of Christ, whose teachings are in the new testament. Science also thought that the earth was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, and that man couldn't travel over 60mph or he would die. I like science, and I don't claim that science is false just because it has had some false things in it. One day we will prove einsteins theory of realtivity wrong, I believe. There is an old saying, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water."
I can't say I agree about the two theories of relativity being proven wrong... they may be, but so far they explain & predict (the important bit) stuff better than any other explanation. The only thing they can't do is some quantum mechanics, & like Einstein extended Newton's ideas, someone is likely to extend his to cover quantum mech. But back on topic, this is really the whole problem with this argument: ProgramZERO believes that the Bible defines Christianity. It doesn't. The Koran was dictated to Mohammad, supposedly, by Allah himself. It is the direct word of Allah. The Bible is not so; even the fact we have one is due to the Catholic Church gathering various gospels & the Torah, deciding what they wanted, & saying 'This is the holy book for Christians.' Christianity is based on following & accepting Jesus, all the rest is in effect moot.
Quote by viktorvonrussia
Quote by ProgramZEROI don't have to add 'some' to anything. I think people are smart enough to know that generalizations don't apply to everyone.
And people who are smart enough to know that generalizations don't apply to everyone are smart enough to write out "some." Is it so hard to type out an extra two or three words? It's really irritating when someone makes a generalization, and when he's called on it, he says "That's not what I meant."
And ProgramZERO thinks too highly of people in the first place, people are stupid. They won't necessarily get it, dude.
Quote by viktorvonrussia
Quote by ProgramZERO
Quote by viktorvonrussiaI(...) wasn't Christianity that made Hitler gas the Jews, it was social tendancies & elitist attitudes. Forget your stupid conspiriacy theories about why the Holocaust occured, & read some history. (I'll just throw in an interesting tidbit here: Hitler may have been a monster, but Stalin was worse, & at least Hitler fulfilled his election promises, lowered inflation & eliminated unemployment - it was an extreme socialist party after all, apart from the psycho angle.) Incidentally I'm sure there were some athiests among the Third Reich. They weren't a 'Christian' party as such; religion was not the basis for their having been a party.
That wasn't my quote. Just thought I'd point that out.
No, it was mine. Don't worry it was just a mistake deleting the points he wasn't replying to.
Quote by viktorvonrussia
Quote by ProgramZEROWhen I say religion, I mean all religions. Science is used everywhere. Everyone relies on science, no matter what religion you are. Why? Science is the study of what actually is, not what is believed to be. And if the bible is so unreliable, then why should one use it? Why should I read a book that is so unreliable? How do I know what is literal and what is not.
The way I see it, people follow the Bible because it's the best source they have. And I wouldn't say the Bible is unreliable as much as just very hard to interpret. But that's why people say they "don't worship the Bible." They worship God and follow the commandments He set.
The only two commandments that really matter since Jesus died for us are 'love your neighbour' (implied in that is 'don't hurt people') & 'accept Jesus.' Only the latter one really matters in the end. The former is just a guide & all the rest is just padding come your death.
Quote by viktorvonrussia
Quote by ProgramZEROAnd I am pro-abortion. I think that we have enough, if not, too many people. Christians do the same thing about abortion. They threaten with eternal damnation.
Or maybe they just think killing babies is wrong. Just like many Athiests I know are against abortion because they think killing babies is wrong. Just because someone's religious doesn't mean all their decisions are based on fear of hell. And just so we're clear, I'm pro-life and pro-choice.
I'm pro-choice, but would prefer that people just didn't get pregnant. Even if the baby is effectively an odd-shaped steak (which I don't believe), abortion tends to have adverse psychological effects on the prospective mother & sometimes those around her.
Quote by viktorvonrussiaAnd I've noticed, ProgramZERO, that you like to use phrases like "we can't be sure" a whole lot. There's a reason people use the word "faith" when they talk about religion. And in my opinion, Christianity is infinitely better than being an Athiest just because Christians work towards something and anticipate the afterlife. When you're like 90 and hooked up to a respirator and lying in your own filth, it'd be nice to have something to hang on to other than "I'm going to die soon."
You're really good at debating you know that? I hold the same opinions. ProgramZERO, even though I reckon there's a difference between 'faith' & 'religion,' really take note of this bit:
Quote by victorvonrussiaThere's a reason people use the word "faith" when they talk about religion.
Quote by DaemonPhyreWyrmWow...so much mudslinging in only 2 days...Anyways, hi!
Hey, mudslinging is fun! So's digging holes, but that's beside the point.
Quote by DaemonPhyreWyrmI am also pro-abortion. It's not like women go out, get themselves pregnant, then get an abortion for the thrill of it. Abortion is no different than deciding to have a limb amputated. It's a life-changing, personal, emotional, and painful experience.
Right you are. Not all Christians are against it, & not all right-to-lifers are Christian (replace 'Christian' with 'Muslim,' 'Buddhist,' or whatever else you fell like, if you want). It's really an issue separate from your choice of faith (yes, atheism is a faith, you have faith that there is no god. You can't prove there isn't, so your own arguments work against you if you try to deny this). It's moral, yes, & your faith will influence your morals, but it's not specifically faith-related.
Quote by DaemonPhyreWyrmAetheism gives on the freedom to believe what they want to believe, and not what some old man in a funny white hat tells us is right (I rather dislike Catholics).
So do I, man, so do I. But they're not the best representatives you could find for Christianity... nor are the US southern Baptists for that matter. Catholics are the incumbents, ruining it for others, & southern Baptists are the self-rightous raving loonies. Obviously these are ridiculous generalisations with no real bearing, but you get the idea right? Also, atheism is as bad as any religion for 'freedom of thought' - I believe the word you're looking for is 'agnosticism.' Atheism still locks you into one choice. If you're agnostic, you say 'I don't know' & can think anything.
Quote by DaemonPhyreWyrmHow is god so beneficial and loving, and yet, he smites all these people, tells his "chosen" people that they're free to kill and rape everyone else, and sends the flawed (yet perfect) images of himself to and eternity of suffering? If god really is so caring, then the bible must have misquoted quite a bit, in which case, it's just chock-full of errors. Therefore, if the bible is the best proof that there is a god, I'll stick to my whole "logic" and "proof" beliefs. <(-------i have no idea what this is about, i'm just ranting again, eh?
Hmm... I've already answered this, as have viktorvonrussia & muyojoe, but noone has directly. He doesn't run every little thing, because then we'd have no free will, which is the part of us that is 'in his image.' The Bible is chock-full of errors, but isn't the proof of Christianity. It's just a supplement really. Helpful sometimes, but with many (man-made) errors. The killing/raping bit is from the Old Testament, which is the Torah, which was written by the Jews, who added in a lot of crap just like the Catholics did. The Old Testament is pretty dodgy in parts.
Quote by DaemonPhyreWyrmI have heard soooooo many christian persons I know blame the 9/11 disaster on the gays, and I'm sure in the coming weeks I'll hear of how Hurricane Katrina was their fault too.
May I suggest you simply tell these people to do the following? 'Stop dirtying the name of your faith, admit that you're just a hateful, prejudiced arsehole, & fuck off.' Sorry if anyone doesn't like swearing, but anyone that fucked up needs some sense slapped into them. Badly.
Heh... I've just read some stuff about anti-rock writers. Nutters there too. Boy are some of them nuts.
- Sep 08, 2005
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Quote by muyojoeIt sounds easy to be an atheist. Only worry about yourself, worry about what you do, say you have no control, and say, even if you are doing nothing, that you are doing your best.
I'm sorry, but at least religions (all that I know of) teach you to turn the other cheek and that it is your responsibility to help others (poor, misfortuned, etc...). I may not agree with all of their methods, but the message is better and sounder than yours. Good luck with your beliefs though. I really was hoping that either of you was truly trying to make your heaven better for all of us, but I guess not. Personally when your son is having heart surgery, your wife is giving birth, or you almost die yourself (some of what I've been through) you find out what you believe in. I take that to heart and won't forget it, because that would be hypocritical.That shows how little you know of atheism.
Not following a religion does not mean not having morals.
Yes, with atheism you feel more free but it is quite harder.
An atheist sets his own morality unlike religious people who follow the morals of their relegion. The problem with that is that if an atheist does something against their morals the won't have to face a god but their own self, which, believe me, is much harder. The hardest judge is one's very self....
As for doing nothing, that mostly goes for religious people. Because, most religious people won't have to do anything. They just have to "believe" and they're off to heaven. On the contrary, people who do things to help others but don't believe in god, are bound to go to hell. How do you explain that?Here's an incident from my schooldays:
In a conversation, a friend of mine mentioned that he was an atheist. When a religious girl heard that, she turned and said "I'd kill you here and now if I could"
And this is just an example....I daily see religous people in the streets [with crosses, reading the bible etc] and when they see a beggar or someone sleeping in the street, not only do they look totally indifferent but sometimes they look them in disgust.
And I've seen immoral atheists helping them......
Is that what religion teaches?
The sharper the knife the easier it is to dull.
The more wealth you possess the harder it is to protect.
Pride brings it's own trouble.
~Lao Tzu- Sep 08, 2005
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Quote by nighteyesThat shows how little you know of atheism.
True, I didn't claim to know of them.
Quote by nighteyesYes, with atheism you feel more free but it is quite harder.
An atheist sets his own morality unlike religious people who follow the morals of their relegion. The problem with that is that if an atheist does something against their morals the won't have to face a god but their own self, which, believe me, is much harder. The hardest judge is one's very self....Actually , I have to face myeslf everyday. That is the same for everybody. I even belong to a religion that says that everyone is a sinner, and noone is perfect. Therefore I cannot achieve perfection according to my religion, no matter what I do here. I suppose you could satisfy yourself, so yours is attainable.
Quote by nighteyesAs for doing nothing, that mostly goes for religious people. Because, most religious people won't have to do anything. They just have to "believe" and they're off to heaven. On the contrary, people who do things to help others but don't believe in god, are bound to go to hell. How do you explain that?
I don't have to. They are not acting in accordance with their religion, and in alot of cases don't really believe, as evidenced by their actions. Therefore they will go to hell also, but it isn't my place to judge, I'm just answering your question.
Quote by nighteyesHere's an incident from my schooldays:
In a conversation, a friend of mine mentioned that he was an atheist. When a religious girl heard that, she turned and said "I'd kill you here and now if I could"
And this is just an example....I didn't do it, and it does not sound like she was saved, if she was a christian. Jesus told us to help people less fortunate, if people don't, what do you want me to do?
Quote by nighteyesI daily see religous people in the streets [with crosses, reading the bible etc] and when they see a beggar or someone sleeping in the street, not only do they look totally indifferent but sometimes they look them in disgust.
And I've seen immoral atheists helping them......
Once again, they were not acting as christians. I never said they only people who help others are christians. I can claim I'm the president of the US, but that doesn't make it so.
- Sep 08, 2005
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Quote by viktorvonrussiaI believe that force is what we call God.
Step back and restate what you said, out loud, in your room when you are at your computer.
Say "I believe that force is what we call God." three times, and tell me that you don't sound ridiculous. Saying 'force' and 'god' in the same sentence like that makes him sound like make-believe magi.... oh wait. Hah! How can you people keep a straight face when you tell people stuff like this in real life? I mean seriously, saying "The almighty God, out of nowhere, made the earth and every living thing on it." just sounds idiotic, don't you think? Just repeat out loud what you say several times, and tell me that it isn't. It sounds like magic, nay, it is magic, but you people don't acknowledge it, because he's GOD and he can do ANYthing, am I wrong? And if he can do anything, why doesn't he just kill all the non-believers? They aren't worthy of staying on his planet, much less go to heaven, so why not give them an early grave and send them to hell right now? Maybe because he doesn't exist. You people will be the death of me. Death from a barrage of stupidity and a right hook of idiocy.
"Shed no tears for me. My glory lives forever!"- Sep 09, 2005
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Whoa. Too much reading and not enough time but I am going to try to answer as many questions as possible. I might not get to you...but I'll try.
Quote by muyojoe
Quote by programzeroI'll gratefully take that ambulance ride to the nearest hospital and be helped by science and you can get on your knees and pray that that infection doesn't spread to vital organs. Don't worry, you'll be fine. Your god will help you.
I actually believe that God does not intervene in my daily life. How can I glorify God if he has to fix everything in my life everyday. There is no way to believe that science and God are contradictory. I'm afraid our science is not quite advanced as we would like to believe. It was only a few hundred years ago that we believed the earth was flat. We have only been on this planet for a few hundred thousand to million years.
So why do you believe in God? Do review your reasons for believing in God and list them here. Most people fool themselves into believing in God because they think that God has done something for them.
Quote by muyojoe
Quote by programzeroYes but you said Christianity is better than Atheism which I disagree. This is contained in the bible and Christianity is based on the bible which consists of the old and the new testament.
No I didn't. I said that religions encourage you to do good things for others on this world. This was in response to your denial of your own signature.Yeah well if you look at current events and previous events, it doesn't look like religion is doing too-well of a job. It says 'thou shalt not kill' and 'thou shalt not steal' but you see so much war, murder, and crime in this world.
Quote by muyojoe
Quote by programzeroYes but you said Christianity is better than Atheism which I disagree.
No I didn't.Quote by muyojoeI may not agree with all of their methods, but the message is better and sounder than yours.
It sounds like you just did. Let me show you another quote from the all-loving bible.
""If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Quote by muyojoeI realize that now you want to tell me how to be a christian. Like I said, "I don't worship the bible." Christianity is supposed to be centered on the works of Christ, whose teachings are in the new testament. Science also thought that the earth was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, and that man couldn't travel over 60mph or he would die. I like science, and I don't claim that science is false just because it has had some false things in it. One day we will prove einsteins theory of realtivity wrong, I believe. There is an old saying, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water."
Christianity is based on the bible. It's how Christians got the idea of God and Jesus because verbal testimony, passed on from generation to generation over a span of 2000 years, would be highly unreliable.
Quote by muyojoeScience also thought that the earth was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, and that man couldn't travel over 60mph or he would die. I like science, and I don't claim that science is false just because it has had some false things in it. One day we will prove einsteins theory of realtivity wrong, I believe. There is an old saying, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water."
"the earth was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, and that man couldn't travel over 60mph or he would die". They all sound like theories. Science is based on theories just like religion but Science requires proof. Religion only needs "faith". And keep in mind that it was religious folk that thought the Earth was the center of the Universe. They laughed at other's that thought otherwise. Hell, they threaten to kill those who said otherwise.
Quote by muyojoeOne day we will prove einsteins theory of realtivity wrong, I believe.
Not really sure if you are the proper authority to comment on anything about Einstein's work. Nazi Physicists attempted to discredit his work but, to this day, his work remains. You are not a Physicist so you're not really in the position to say anything. Einstein contributed to the atom bomb. How close are you to helping in constructing an atom bomb?
Quote by viktorvonrussia
Quote by ProgramZEROWould you happen to know what this force might be?
I believe that force is what we call God.
What evidence do you have that justifies this belief?
Quote by viktorvonrussia
Quote by ProgramZEROI don't have to add 'some' to anything. I think people are smart enough to know that generalizations don't apply to everyone.
And people who are smart enough to know that generalizations don't apply to everyone are smart enough to write out "some." Is it so hard to type out an extra two or three words? It's really irritating when someone makes a generalization, and when he's called on it, he says "That's not what I meant."Smart people know that smart people know that generalizations don't apply to everyone. It's not my fault if people are stupid. Generalizations are made because I can't comment on everyone. I can't say "well John from Missouri is different. The generalization doesn't apply to him." And it's me with the keyboard, not you. I choose what I type.
Quote by viktorvonrussia
Quote by ProgramZEROWhen I say religion, I mean all religions. Science is used everywhere. Everyone relies on science, no matter what religion you are. Why? Science is the study of what actually is, not what is believed to be. And if the bible is so unreliable, then why should one use it? Why should I read a book that is so unreliable? How do I know what is literal and what is not.
The way I see it, people follow the Bible because it's the best source they have. And I wouldn't say the Bible is unreliable as much as just very hard to interpret. But that's why people say they "don't worship the Bible." They worship God and follow the commandments He set.A.If it's the best source they have, then they probably aren't very smart. Their best source should be their heads. B.The harder to interpret, the larger chance for mistakes. C.Yes, Christians follow the ten commandments and then they kill homo-sexuals, Jews, Muslims. It says 'thou shalt not kill' but then you find a quote like this:
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."(Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Quote by viktorvonrussiaOr maybe they just think killing babies is wrong. Just like many Athiests I know are against abortion because they think killing babies is wrong. Just because someone's religious doesn't mean all their decisions are based on fear of hell. And just so we're clear, I'm pro-life and pro-choice.
And I've noticed, ProgramZERO, that you like to use phrases like "we can't be sure" a whole lot. There's a reason people use the word "faith" when they talk about religion. And in my opinion, Christianity is infinitely better than being an Athiest just because Christians work towards something and anticipate the afterlife. When you're like 90 and hooked up to a respirator and lying in your own filth, it'd be nice to have something to hang on to other than "I'm going to die soon."There is nothing wrong with killing a couple of duplicating cells.
Atheists work towards bettering this life because it sucks so much, not some imaginary afterlife.
Quote by viktorvonrussiaThat wasn't my quote. Just thought I'd point that out.
Hey, it's hard to keep track. You try responding to as many posts as possible.
One thing FredGreg: Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. They both worship Jesus.
Quote by FredGregYou can actually prove a negitive... but only when you can disprove the only alternative, which must be mutually exclusive.
Okay. Give us an example.
Quote by FredGregI'm pro-choice, but would prefer that people just didn't get pregnant. Even if the baby is effectively an odd-shaped steak (which I don't believe), abortion tends to have adverse psychological effects on the prospective mother & sometimes those around her.
Ohh please. People are thrilled when they lose a big responsibility. If I entrusted to you a top-secret government document that people would kill over, and they knew that you had it, would you want it? And you can't stop people from having sex. It's impossible.
Quote by FredBerg
Quote by viktorvonrussia
And I've noticed, ProgramZERO, that you like to use phrases like "we can't be sure" a whole lot. There's a reason people use the word "faith" when they talk about religion. And in my opinion, Christianity is infinitely better than being an Athiest just because Christians work towards something and anticipate the afterlife. When you're like 90 and hooked up to a respirator and lying in your own filth, it'd be nice to have something to hang on to other than "I'm going to die soon."You're really good at debating you know that? I hold the same opinions. ProgramZERO, even though I reckon there's a difference between 'faith' & 'religion,' really take note of this bit:
Quote by viktorvonrussiaThere's a reason people use the word "faith" when they talk about religion.
The only reason people use the word faith is because they aren't sure themselves. That is not true belief and those who say they have 'faith' are burning in hell for having doubt. And I've sensed some hate coming from you viktorvonrussia. That's very Jesus following of you. That's very Christian of you.
Quote by FredGregThe killing/raping bit is from the Old Testament, which is the Torah, which was written by the Jews, who added in a lot of crap just like the Catholics did. The Old Testament is pretty dodgy in parts.
I also sense religious hate in you FredGreg. Christians follow the bible my friend. They're called bible thumpers for a reason. You hear Christians refer to bible quotes all the time. And Catholics are Christians. Catholicism is a branch of Christianity.
Here's some stuff:
Faith is based on testimony with no evidence provided. That's why it's a faith. I'm gonna ask you religious folk to provide the evidence that validates to you your 'faith'. And please keep later posts shorter. It's real hard and time-consuming to answer to long posts.Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.
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Quote by programzeroSo why do you believe in God? Do review your reasons for believing in God and list them here. Most people fool themselves into believing in God because they think that God has done something for them.
Yes, I have. No I didn't come onto this thread to list my reasons, by posting the thread you encouraged others to ask you questions.
Quote by programzeroIt sounds like you just did.
No, you quoted me and I said the message is sounder. Better was never mentioned.
Quote by programzeroChristianity is based on the bible. It's how Christians got the idea of God and Jesus because verbal testimony, passed on from generation to generation over a span of 2000 years, would be highly unreliable.
Your right it is based on the bible. The prayer book in my church is also based on the bible, and yet somehow I don't worship either. You point out how unreliable it is for me, right after you quote it to me. You do want to have it both ways don't you? I'm afraid you have me confused with a muslim. They believe the koran is the direct word of God. I never made that claim. I'm not the only one to point this out to you in this thread, or to explain the bible's inconsistencies.
Quote by programzeroNot really sure if you are the proper authority to comment on anything about Einstein's work. Nazi Physicists attempted to discredit his work but, to this day, his work remains. You are not a Physicist so you're not really in the position to say anything. Einstein contributed to the atom bomb. How close are you to helping in constructing an atom bomb?
No, I didn't say I was, although you sound cocky enough to believe you are. I am merely pointing out that science has taken many leaps and bounds over the centuries, that completely contradicted the established beliefs. Why you think your knowledge is so perfect now, I don't understand. I'm sure we still don't understand a thimblefull of what the universe has to show us. I also didn't state why I wanted it to be disproved, bypassed, or broken.
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DaemonPhyreWyrm
Behold the power of cheese
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Hmmmmm...science is making leaps and bounds, while religion sits around, waiting till doomsday. Sounds about right. Science advances us, while religion holds us back. Couldn't have said it better myself. Because science often contradicts religion, it must be bad, right? I have never met a scientist that says we have a perfect understanding of everything, as you seem to think they claim to.
Why does it not suprise me that you're from Alabama? I was expecting a Texan, but oh well, eh?
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Sorry if I'm repeating something, but it'll take me more time than I have to read through the whole thread, so:
How do you explain the perfect balance of nature in this world? The perfect revolution of the Earth's orbit, the complex nature of living organisms, the reasons why humans are far more advanced than any other species, why all this? Do you really think this all happened by chance?
Edit: Oh, there was a question asked before. My bad, ignore this post.
"What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?"
- Dr. Robert SchullerGoodTree - The homepage that supports charities ^_^
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DaemonPhyreWyrm
Behold the power of cheese
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Bloody good luck is a more than satisfactory answer. Consider the size of the universe. Do you realize how very few planets can support life? I don't know either, but it's a very, very small fraction of the plantets and planetoids out there. Random chance is in every way a better explanation of how and why things are than some divine presence.
Let's say there is some higher power. The sheer scale and vastness of its power is beyond all humans' (and I mean everyone at once) comprehension. I hardly think a being, force, or whatever you want to call it really cares about what a few billion insignificant thinking fleshbags do on their insignificant little ball of rock, eh?
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Quote by muyojoeActually , I have to face myeslf everyday. That is the same for everybody. I even belong to a religion that says that everyone is a sinner, and noone is perfect. Therefore I cannot achieve perfection according to my religion, no matter what I do here. I suppose you could satisfy yourself, so yours is attainable.
Exactly as you said it. You try to achieve perfection according to someone else's standards.
I'm trying to achieve perfection according to my standards. And setting your own standards doesn't mean that you'll set them to suit you. My standards is my ideal "me". That doesn't mean that they are easily attainable.
And believe me, failing your self is much harder than failing your god....I've been in both positions...Quote: I don't have to. They are not acting in accordance with their religion, and in alot of cases don't really believe, as evidenced by their actions. Therefore they will go to hell also, but it isn't my place to judge, I'm just answering your question.
Believe me, they are people who go to church at least every Sunday, give one or two coins "for the poor" and they believe with all their heart. According to the priests here in Greece that's enough to buy your way to heaven [I'm not talking for every religion]. Yet if you ask them to give the money that would be used to build a temple for the people in need, they might even unchurch you...... Again, I'm talking from my experiences here in Greece.
Quote: I didn't do it, and it does not sound like she was saved, if she was a christian. Jesus told us to help people less fortunate, if people don't, what do you want me to do?
Nothing. I just want you to understand that there are atheists that keep Jesus', or another great philosopher's [for that's what Jesus is to me] words in their heart and act in accordance to them. But they just don't believe in a God. Why do they have to go to hell since they far better than many believers?
As for me, I'm a great admirer of Lao Tzu, whose teachings are similar in many ways to those of Jesus.Quote: Once again, they were not acting as christians. I never said they only people who help others are christians. I can claim I'm the president of the US, but that doesn't make it so.
Neither did I, I'm just mentioning an example.The sharper the knife the easier it is to dull.
The more wealth you possess the harder it is to protect.
Pride brings it's own trouble.
~Lao Tzu- Sep 09, 2005
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I am not all that sure on the god issue. My biggest curiousity that would make me lean towards a view of some god etc. is the question of where the universe came from. The big bang is one theory, but even then, where did the mass etc. that made the big bang possible come from (and on and on the question can go) ? Also, is there actually a limit to the universe I wonder, like if you go out so many light years you just come to the end of existence? Obviously not expecting answers, just throwing out ideas, but that blows my mind :D That makes me hopeful of a higher being. The alternative is just scary otherwise *shrug*
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Ugh atheist.....
the real answer will come after death. Which of us is the right one...
Nya~~ pretty thx to PAche for this sig :P
lolz....i got the Haruhism Fever T_T- Sep 09, 2005
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If I repeat anything asked or said I'm sorry. I just want to ask my question, not read 500 others.
I know that there are people don't believe in God because they see no reason for a eternal watcher or creator over all existance. Science seems to have phased out a place for God in our lives, but, at the same time, science was never really there to prove his existance in the first place. That's the purpose of faith my friends, who would have to make the choice of faith if there was evidence of some being beyond our scope
Another thing to remember is that science is an ever expanding field, on which theories are based on theories and so on. These theories can be disproved at anytime canceling out the ones based on it. You gotta have major balls to say that science (as it stands) disproves the existance of God. Rather, it just does't aid in the proof or reasoning. Also, in my view, if you can't accept the basic understanding of the world from science's perspective, how can you accept the often wacky world of religion?(thats no my question for you, ProgramZERO)
So what I'm getting at is, science aside, why would you take the *risk of not at least believing in a God?
*all ending circumstances aside because, hell, we don't know what happens after death
The monkeys on the bus go ohahahahahaahahaahahahaahah, ohahahahahaahahaahahahaahah, ohahahahahaahahaahahahaahah. The mokeys on the bus go ohahahahahaahahaahahahaahah, all around the town
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There IS no 'risk' of not believing in god, because in the end, you could just ask for forgiveness, right? He is very merciful, am I right? Hell, since murderers can ask for forgiveness in prison, why can't I ask for forgiveness for not believing in him?
"Shed no tears for me. My glory lives forever!"- Sep 09, 2005
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Archer79
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Quote by DaemonPhyreWyrmBloody good luck is a more than satisfactory answer. Consider the size
of the universe. Do you realize how very few planets can support life?
I don't know either, but it's a very, very small fraction of the
plantets and planetoids out there. Random chance is in every way a
better explanation of how and why things are than some divine presence.
Let's say there is some higher power. The sheer scale and vastness of
its power is beyond all humans' (and I mean everyone at once)
comprehension. I hardly think a being, force, or whatever you want to
call it really cares about what a few billion insignificant thinking
fleshbags do on their insignificant little ball of rock, eh?Good thing His care is all about love then, huh?
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