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Koutetsu

Koutetsu

The power of Aiur overwhelms you

Quote by Archer79There is a difference between bearing testimony and providing supporting evidence. ...Testimony is also valid in a legal court of law mind you. It is interesting to me though, that you have chosen to totally write off the testimony of millions in your decision to claim there is no God.

I like whenever people use the sheer number of people who believe in god as a crutch, because surely if millions of people believe it, it's right, right? Let me tell you something, the reason why millions of people believe in god is because they were brought up on it. If you took a chunk of the population and taught them evolution when they grew up, there would be an equally massive amount of Athesists as there are creationists. This would happen because the Atheists would teach their children about Atheism and their children would teach their children and so on. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's right. Do you consider teenagers binge drinking right? No, but it is popular.

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"Shed no tears for me. My glory lives forever!"

FredGreg

FredGreg

Cynical pedant.

Quote by ProgramZEROWell, that's one example. One of VERY FEW. It doesn't apply to proving God doesn't exist though. You can prove if someone is dead or alive because we know, for a fact, that one can be dead or alive. God was never proven but he was never disproven BUT the burden of proof rests in the hands of the accuser. Could you prove that dragons don't exist? The answer is no. It's a negative.

Hey, I said it wasn't an argument remember! Just an interesting point. You can't prove most negatives, granted from the word 'go.' But again, the existence of God will never be either proven or disproven without his direct intervention - which I know you don't believe can happen, but that just means you believe he'll never be either proven or disproven.

Quote by ProgramZEROI agree but some people are stupid enough to listen. Usually, these people exist in poor, undereducated, countries. They listen to the man in the white hat say that they should not use condoms. That is a load of BULL. I'm sure you would agree with me.

Indeed I would. Quite apart from common sense, observing the decrees of the Pope or anyone like him in the manner devout Catholics do is idolatry IMO; i.e. a big no-no. He ain't God. The attitude is fairly stupid too - before conception there is no independent life, only the potential, simple as that, so it's not killing. Another interesting (to me, I hope to everyone else) tidbit: the reason priests aren't allowed to marry or have sex is that many monks in the middle ages thought sex was evil, & one was elected Pope. Any married priest was excommunicated. Shows how stupid it is to take his word as law ey?

Quote by ProgramZEROBut people take it literally which is what pisses me off. They refer to the bible when they make decisions when they should be using their heads and common sense to make a decision. And if they shouldn't take the bible literally, then how should they take it? How do they know what scriptures to follow and which to ignore? How will they know? And if you don't want to be told what to do, then maybe you should convert to another religion.

Well, God can tell you stuff through the Bible. It just shouldn't be read literally - it does say in there to think for yourself (provided, again, that you interpret it that way, so it's a chicken-egg thing that hasn't yet begun - they need a). Literalist Christians are often those people who see it as being all-or-nothing, they think if you don't believe Genesis word-for-word you can't possibly believe that Jesus died for you. Well, they're wrong, there's living proof walking around all over the world, but that's why they try to argue against rationalist attitudes - they can't comprehend people such as my myself (I thought I was a heretic for a long time; now I understand there's a lot of people like this). I personally take it in a thought-out way - I think about how to square it with scientific evidence & usually I can. There have been things I can't, but they get there - just the other day I got a new perspective on the story of Noah's ark. Pretty obvious really, provided you have a little information, but it didn't occur to me before.

Now... about your proposal: you may remember from before my distiction between 'religion' & 'faith.' Religion is a bound way of thought - it's hard to explain, but I'll try. Technically to my way of thinking & pedantry re linguistics, Catholicism & the Southern Baptists & the Greek Orthodox are separate religions. Before you say 'no, that's not right,' think about it. The doctrine is a lot different, almost as much as between Judaism & Catholicism or something like that. The binding factor is the belief in Jesus as the son of God & Saviour. So, though I consider them distinct religions, they are the same faith at heart. The Jews, Muslims, Jehova's Witnesses etc. aren't, because they don't believe that bit about Jesus, no matter how similar the rest is. So to sum up, I'm quite happy to not be part of any of those religions, but I'm gonna stay with my faith (actually the only problem I see with my way of defining them here is that 'my faith' is a little ambiguous).

Quote by KoutetsuI like whenever people use the sheer number of people who believe in god as a crutch, because surely if millions of people believe it, it's right, right? Let me tell you something, the reason why millions of people believe in god is because they were brought up on it. If you took a chunk of the population and taught them evolution when they grew up, there would be an equally massive amount of Athesists as there are creationists. This would happen because the Atheists would teach their children about Atheism and their children would teach their children and so on. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's right. Do you consider teenagers binge drinking right? No, but it is popular.

First, yes, the whole world can be wrong. Doesn't mean they are though. Second, you discount born-again Christians. They do exist you know, & are usually the most devout & spirit-filled Christians you'll find, as opposed to those who were brought up to it but don't really believe, who also exist in vast numbers. Also you discount rationalist Christians. Not all of us are strict literal creationists, & evolution doesn't clash with the simple idea that God created us. Don't be one of those people who think everything is black & white, & don't debate under that assumption either. It makes for weak arguments.

Koutetsu

Koutetsu

The power of Aiur overwhelms you

Quote by FredGreg

Quote by KoutetsuI like whenever people use the sheer number of people who believe in god as a crutch, because surely if millions of people believe it, it's right, right? Let me tell you something, the reason why millions of people believe in god is because they were brought up on it. If you took a chunk of the population and taught them evolution when they grew up, there would be an equally massive amount of Athesists as there are creationists. This would happen because the Atheists would teach their children about Atheism and their children would teach their children and so on. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's right. Do you consider teenagers binge drinking right? No, but it is popular.

First, yes, the whole world can be wrong. Doesn't mean they are though. Second, you discount born-again Christians. They do exist you know, & are usually the most devout & spirit-filled Christians you'll find, as opposed to those who were brought up to it but don't really believe, who also exist in vast numbers. Also you discount rationalist Christians. Not all of us are strict literal creationists, & evolution doesn't clash with the simple idea that God created us. Don't be one of those people who think everything is black & white, & don't debate under that assumption either. It makes for weak arguments.

'Born again Christians'? Those I suppose are the spirits that have worshiped god in their last life and god just decides to send them back to earth to spread his word, right? Assuming there is a heaven and hell, and resurrection does happen, that would be a completely acceptable statement. And by being a 'rational' Christian, you believe in god, but you don't believe what is in the bible, so you are disproving the 'truth' of your religion. That is pretty irrational, if you ask me. You pick and choose what you want to believe, and all else isn't supposed to be taken literally, because if it was, it wouldn't be 'rational'. Tell me, what is so rational about believing in an entity that can perform any feat, no matter how difficult, with the push of a button? How rational is a man separating a body of water so people could walk through it? What is so rational about when you die, you either go to heaven and be rewarded for all of eternity, or go to hell and burn? Tell me Mr. Rational Christian.

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"Shed no tears for me. My glory lives forever!"

FredGreg

FredGreg

Cynical pedant.

Quote by Koutetsu'Born again Christians'? Those I suppose are the spirits that have worshiped god in their last life and god just decides to send them back to earth to spread his word, right? Assuming there is a heaven and hell, and resurrection does happen, that would be a completely acceptable statement. And by being a 'rational' Christian, you believe in god, but you don't believe what is in the bible, so you are disproving the 'truth' of your religion. That is pretty irrational, if you ask me. You pick and choose what you want to believe, and all else isn't supposed to be taken literally, because if it was, it wouldn't be 'rational'. Tell me, what is so rational about believing in an entity that can perform any feat, no matter how difficult, with the push of a button? How rational is a man separating a body of water so people could walk through it? What is so rational about when you die, you either go to heaven and be rewarded for all of eternity, or go to hell and burn? Tell me Mr. Rational Christian.

Nothing much is rational about those things you mention. That's where the 'faith' part comes in - those acts exist outside of science, pretty much by definition. What doesn't exist outside of science is what I'm rational about. Take things in context - the flood covered the 'whole world,' but not so long ago, the whole world was pretty small, e.g. Alexander the Great & his contemporaries thought the whole world went no further than Persia did until they got there. Ever heard of Gilgamesh? Same story, penned 1000 years earlier in Mesopotamia. Now, consider that all of humanity was just emerging from Africa, & there was a huge monsoon or something, & everyone died except Noah/Gilgamesh/whatever-his-name-was; this would be the whole world. The Bible isn't the direct word of God like the Koran is supposed to be, rather it's the work of men, divinely inspired though some may be. & you're right, I do choose what to believe literally. I do it based on whether science has any evidence to the contrary, & my basic faith in Jesus will never be in that situation - again, it's outside science. No offence, but it's quite obvious you're so anti-Christian that you'll probably never take the time to find out about this stuff properly. Like I said before, black & white. One other thing: please see my response to ProgramZERO in the post you replied to about faith & religion - sure, I discount the truth of most literalist 'religion,' but not the Christian 'faith.'

Edit: Oh, & why do you put quotes around 'born again Christian?' Have you never heard of them before? It doesn't mean they've been raised from the dead, it's the name given to those who have converted from another faith or from atheism/agnosticism. It refers to spiritual rebirth in Jesus - whether you believe that actually happens or not, it is the proper name for people who've converted.

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by Archer79With that opinion of it, then why are you using it as a reference? ...There are numerous translations of the Bible.

Well that's because it's the bible that Christianity is based on.

Quote by Archer79Perhaps you should read your bible? This is "ask the Athiest" after all? ...Not "ask the Christian"?

I don't read the bible and I don't give a rat's ass over what it says. You tell me what you think he saved the world from.

Quote by Archer79Once again, the information you have provided is totally circumstantial and appears to have no correlation to Jesus, nor the Bible?...

You said he taught this-and-that through the bible and the people who followed Jesus enslaved Blacks and killed Native Americans. The people who followed God created a monarchy that answered to no one. Monarchs could tax the poor into further poverty. Jews were gassed because of Anti-Semitic roots in religion. After Christianity was founded, the Jews were being forced to convert. After they wouldn't, the Christians banished them. Not only that, it was said that with the coming of Jesus, all other religions would become obsolete. Christians in Europe taught that Jews were evil. That they followed a religion that they knew was false. The Nazi party was Christian and although Christianity taught that 'thou shalt not kill', these things were going on, AT THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE VATICAN!!!

Quote by Archer79There is a difference between bearing testimony and providing supporting evidence. ...Testimony is also valid in a legal court of law mind you.

You're right. Testimony could be false at any time. Evidence does not lie. I could say someone is dead. That person could still be alive. That was just testimony. If I gave you the dead and rotting body of someone, you would know FOR A FACT that person was dead. That's evidence. That's the difference between testimony and evidence.

Quote by FredGregWell, God can tell you stuff through the Bible.

So what did he tell us? That we came from Adam and Eve when evidence suggests that we evolved from monkeys? That the sky is where angels fly and where he resides when all we found are clouds? That he created the current Universe in 7 days when it took, at current estimates, 13.7 billion years? All the stuff that 'God told us' was written by men. Tell me, what did God tell us in the scriptures written by man?

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

Masaru-San

Masaru-San

Mayor of Hardcoretown.

It seems the only people you're so called allowed to hate and nazis and Atheists. I'm sort of a nihilist, but somehow at the same time an evolutionist, which I suppose is basically an atheists. This is my point of view on God. People who obsess over things likeStar Trek, Lord Of the Rings, Naruto, and stuff like that are simply scaled versions of religious people. They worship stories and fictional characters. I'd go into great detail about the confirmed proofs of evolution and the busted myths of religion, but nobody really knows whats out there, so you might as well stop bashing other people.

Take a look toward the sky, Halvdane. We shall fill the air with spears to turn black this christian sun.

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by Masaru-SanIt seems the only people you're so called allowed to hate and nazis and Atheists. I'm sort of a nihilist, but somehow at the same time an evolutionist, which I suppose is basically an atheists. This is my point of view on God. People who obsess over things likeStar Trek, Lord Of the Rings, Naruto, and stuff like that are simply scaled versions of religious people. They worship stories and fictional characters. I'd go into great detail about the confirmed proofs of evolution and the busted myths of religion, but nobody really knows whats out there, so you might as well stop bashing other people.

Wow. More words of wisdom from Masaru-San *Not Speaking Sarcastically*. Seriously, you've got quite a head on your shoulders. No we don't know what's out there but we ain't gonna find it if we don't stop speculating with the bible and start looking for it. I bash whoever the hell I want because religion is a big pimple in humanity's ass. People of different religions can't get along. If the world were Atheist, or at least tolerant, we wouldn't of had planes crashing into buildings.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by Masaru-SanIt seems the only people you're so called allowed to
hate and nazis and Atheists. I'm sort of a nihilist, but somehow at the
same time an evolutionist, which I suppose is basically an atheists.
This is my point of view on God. People who obsess over things likeStar
Trek, Lord Of the Rings, Naruto, and stuff like that are simply scaled
versions of religious people. They worship stories and fictional
characters. I'd go into great detail about the confirmed proofs of
evolution and the busted myths of religion, but nobody really knows
whats out there, so you might as well stop bashing other
people.

Wow. More words of wisdom from Masaru-San *Not Speaking
Sarcastically*. Seriously, you've got quite a head on your shoulders.
No we don't know what's out there but we ain't gonna find it if we
don't stop speculating with the bible and start looking for it. I bash
whoever the hell I want because religion is a big pimple in humanity's
ass. People of different religions can't get along. If the world were
Atheist, or at least tolerant, we wouldn't of had planes crashing into
buildings.

Why don't you go looking for it?... And if by "bash" you mean "flame", you should be aware that is against MT policies.

Regardless of your speculation, which is apparently unsubstantiated by your comments, there really isn't any way to determine what may have or might not have been...

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by Archer79With that opinion of it, then why are you using it as a
reference? ...There are numerous translations of the Bible.

Well
that's because it's the bible that Christianity is based
on.

Well... ...Then why don't you read it? ...This is supposedly "Ask the Athiest", right?

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by Archer79Perhaps you should read your bible? This is "ask the
Athiest" after all? ...Not "ask the Christian"?

I don't read the
bible and I don't give a rat's ass over what it says. You tell me what
you think he saved the world from.

The Bible is an excellent source of information.

I have pointed you to a reference that can show you what you need to know. I am not obligated to even do that for you. Your ignorance of the content of that text provides me with the impression that you're not even remotely prepared to handle an "Ask the Athiest" thread....

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by Archer79Once again, the
information you have provided is totally circumstantial and appears to
have no correlation to Jesus, nor the Bible?...

You said he
taught this-and-that through the bible and the people who followed
Jesus enslaved Blacks and killed Native Americans. The people who
followed God created a monarchy that answered to no one. Monarchs could
tax the poor into further poverty. Jews were gassed because of
Anti-Semitic roots in religion. After Christianity was founded, the
Jews were being forced to convert. After they wouldn't, the Christians
banished them. Not only that, it was said that with the coming of
Jesus, all other religions would become obsolete. Christians in Europe
taught that Jews were evil. That they followed a religion that they
knew was false. The Nazi party was Christian and although Christianity
taught that 'thou shalt not kill', these things were going on, AT
THE knowledge OF THE VATICAN!!!

What does the knowledge of the Vatican have to do with any of this? Did the Vatican have the means to intervene, or are you getting that at that the Vatican was forced to stand idly by while people were being martyred for their beliefs?

And... ...In response to the other clutter you provided, none of that is in line with the teachings of Christ. ...It was not Christians alone responsible for those events, and not all Christians embody the teachings of Christ. The participation of those subscribing to Christian views does not change reality. ...God is good, and loving, and merciful, and real, and incredibly alive.

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by Archer79There is a
difference between bearing testimony and providing supporting evidence.
...Testimony is also valid in a legal court of law mind
you.

You're right. Testimony could be false at any time.
Evidence does not lie. I could say someone is dead. That person could
still be alive. That was just testimony. If I gave you the dead and
rotting body of someone, you would know FOR A FACT that person
was dead. That's evidence. That's the difference between testimony and
evidence.


Just as false witness can be given as testimony, false evidence can be submitted as well. Unfathomable movements of God have been recorded throughout the millenia. These events have had significant impacts on believers and non-believers alike. ...However, those who do not believe choose to waive this evidence. The evidence has been provided. ...You simply choose to be ignorant of it. ...Exemplified perhaps by your refusal to read what is not only the best selling book in the World, but is also one of the most verified historical documents, dating back hundreds and hundreds of years.

..But some people just don't buy evidence nor testimony. ...But none the less, both are there.

Incidentally, you don't happen to run around your house wearing a tin hat and worring about conspiracy theories, do you?

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by FredGregWell, God can tell you stuff through the
Bible.

So what did he tell us? That we came from Adam and Eve
when evidence suggests that we evolved from monkeys? That the sky is
where angels fly and where he resides when all we found are clouds?
That he created the current Universe in 7 days when it took, at current
estimates, 13.7 billion years? All the stuff that 'God told us' was
written by men. Tell me, what did God tell us in the scriptures written
by man?

And inspired by God...

...But then, he really isn't obligated to do so. ...This is "Ask the Athiest." Perhaps he or I should ask you for what the scriptures say, and why you believe them to be false? ... So, tell me, who can verify that the evidence provided is really that old? Who can bear testimony or witness that they witnessed the creation of man? ...You are after all a believer in testimony and evidence, are you not?

...Certainly radioisotope dating is the modern standard for dating, but ultimately, it is derived from observations made today. ...Which, as you state, may be 13.7 million years after the fact... ...And in such a timespan, many things can change... ...Like what? ...Maybe you can find some entity that bore witness 13.7 years ago? ...Me personally, I don't know of any human nor ape alive then... ...But then, I'm not the one trying to deny or disprove the teachings of the bible. ...Although.... ...It is interesting that someone is attempting to link scientific data to a book he refuses to read...

FredGreg

FredGreg

Cynical pedant.

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by FredGregWell, God can tell you stuff through the Bible.

So what did he tell us? That we came from Adam and Eve when evidence suggests that we evolved from monkeys? That the sky is where angels fly and where he resides when all we found are clouds? That he created the current Universe in 7 days when it took, at current estimates, 13.7 billion years? All the stuff that 'God told us' was written by men. Tell me, what did God tell us in the scriptures written by man?

You throw my own arguments back at me without understanding them. Being written by men is what makes those scriptures flawed, it's what necessitates taking them in context, it's what makes translations unreliable, it's what puts bias in there. When I say he tells us stuff, I'm referring to something called 'remur words' (I don't know the spelling of that word, & can't find it on Google, so I must be way off), which is when you read & suddenly a passage will strike you as really significant, & not always literally either - it includes your own bias. I know you're not going to believe this, because you don't believe he's there, but if you could accept it for a bit just for the sake of argument you'd hopefully understand what I mean. God told Moses what to write, & probably a lot more, but much of the Bible is testimony. The whole New Testament is anyway - if you thought that was supposed to be the direct word of God, you don't have any idea.

The book of Genesis is one that shouldn't be taken literally, again. In other books a 'day' refers to a long period of time, why not there? It says he made us from the dust... well, that could still refer to evolution. Remember it was written for a time when they were likely to consider change over generations to be evil & the work of the Devil. It's all context. The sky where angels fly? It never says angels have wings - did you know that? The wings are an invention of the Renaissance. Also Heaven isn't supposed to be physically in the sky. Just because people once thought so doesn't make it so. You have so many misconceptions of this thing you're bashing - don't you think it might help your cause if you knew a bit more about it? Don't mouth off about what you don't understand. Most of humanity needs to learn that lesson (including Christians about science).

'Current estimates' are wrong, I reckon. If you believe the big bang theory, & note that the furthest objects we could see a while ago were 17 bn light years away & receding (dunno if we see further now), the universe must be at least 17 bn years old. Especially when you consider the epicentre must be far out of our viewing range because everything we see seems to be moving in basically one direction.

Quote by Masaru-SanIt seems the only people you're so called allowed to hate and nazis and Atheists. I'm sort of a nihilist, but somehow at the same time an evolutionist, which I suppose is basically an atheists. This is my point of view on God. People who obsess over things likeStar Trek, Lord Of the Rings, Naruto, and stuff like that are simply scaled versions of religious people. They worship stories and fictional characters. I'd go into great detail about the confirmed proofs of evolution and the busted myths of religion, but nobody really knows whats out there, so you might as well stop bashing other people.

Well, if you believe there is no god, you're an athiest, but a nihilist is basically an agnostic when it comes to religion, one who doesn't believe in anything in particular. It's the distinction between 'believes there is not' & 'does not believes there is.' Evolution needn't have any bearing on the matter, despite what certain obtuse personages may claim to the contrary. You don't have to be an atheist to believe in evolution.

Quote by ProgramZEROWow. More words of wisdom from Masaru-San *Not Speaking Sarcastically*. Seriously, you've got quite a head on your shoulders. No we don't know what's out there but we ain't gonna find it if we don't stop speculating with the bible and start looking for it. I bash whoever the hell I want because religion is a big pimple in humanity's ass. People of different religions can't get along. If the world were Atheist, or at least tolerant, we wouldn't of had planes crashing into buildings.

You can have your Bible & your science. Just because you won't put any effort into understanding how & why it's still legit doesn't mean it's not possible. But the main point is that if everyone was atheist, you'd still have war & all the rest of humanity's shittiness, they'd just have to find a new excuse. Like 'we want to.' What's needed is tolerance, you're dead right there. But you aren't that tolerant yourself, you know.

Quote by Archer79Well... ...Then why don't you read it? ...This is supposedly "Ask the Athiest", right?

Don't be so unrealistic, it was inevitable that this thread degenerate into an atheist vs. Christian flamefest :P They always do.

Quote by Archer79Your ignorance of the content of that text provides me with the impression that you're not even remotely prepared to handle an "Ask the Athiest" thread....

I'm not sure whether this is fair; he did say he'd answer questions about atheism, not Christianity. However, you do need to learn a bit before slagging Christianity off as a whole, ProgramZERO. Like... oh, say, context? Or maybe what it actually says? A bit of history? I dunno. Something.

Quote by Archer79[The Bible is] not only the best selling book in the World, but is also one of the most verified historical documents, dating back hundreds and hundreds of years.

Fair point, but in the process of that verification, a lot of flaws have come up. Before you jump on this, ProgramZERO, please note that these flaws are all compatible with our core faith, just not necessarily with the religious guff that surrounds it. That doesn't matter, we adapt & discard that. It's not like that part matters, it's superficial.

Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

Quote by FredGregDon't be so unrealistic, it
was inevitable that this thread degenerate into an atheist vs.
Christian flamefest :P They always do.

I have no desire to participate in a 'flamefest'. ...The topic up to this point seems rather immaterial. For the time being, I am retiring from this thread until something of actual value is presented here.

Koutetsu

Koutetsu

The power of Aiur overwhelms you

Quote by Archer79

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by Archer79There is a
difference between bearing testimony and providing supporting evidence.
...Testimony is also valid in a legal court of law mind
you.

You're right. Testimony could be false at any time.
Evidence does not lie. I could say someone is dead. That person could
still be alive. That was just testimony. If I gave you the dead and
rotting body of someone, you would know FOR A FACT that person
was dead. That's evidence. That's the difference between testimony and
evidence.


Just as false witness can be given as testimony, false evidence can be submitted as well. Unfathomable movements of God have been recorded throughout the millenia. These events have had significant impacts on believers and non-believers alike. ...However, those who do not believe choose to waive this evidence. The evidence has been provided. ...You simply choose to be ignorant of it. ...Exemplified perhaps by your refusal to read what is not only the best selling book in the World, but is also one of the most verified historical documents, dating back hundreds and hundreds of years.
..But some people just don't buy evidence nor testimony. ...But none the less, both are there.
Incidentally, you don't happen to run around your house wearing a tin hat and worring about conspiracy theories, do you?

Quote by ProgramZERO

Quote by FredGregWell, God can tell you stuff through the
Bible.

So what did he tell us? That we came from Adam and Eve
when evidence suggests that we evolved from monkeys? That the sky is
where angels fly and where he resides when all we found are clouds?
That he created the current Universe in 7 days when it took, at current
estimates, 13.7 billion years? All the stuff that 'God told us' was
written by men. Tell me, what did God tell us in the scriptures written
by man?

And inspired by God...
...But then, he really isn't obligated to do so. ...This is "Ask the Athiest." Perhaps he or I should ask you for what the scriptures say, and why you believe them to be false? ... So, tell me, who can verify that the evidence provided is really that old? Who can bear testimony or witness that they witnessed the creation of man? ...You are after all a believer in testimony and evidence, are you not?
...Certainly radioisotope dating is the modern standard for dating, but ultimately, it is derived from observations made today. ...Which, as you state, may be 13.7 million years after the fact... ...And in such a timespan, many things can change... ...Like what? ...Maybe you can find some entity that bore witness 13.7 years ago? ...Me personally, I don't know of any human nor ape alive then... ...But then, I'm not the one trying to deny or disprove the teachings of the bible. ...Although.... ...It is interesting that someone is attempting to link scientific data to a book he refuses to read...

Ok.. about the 'evidence' of god making everything being provided, and recorded, where the hell is it? We have already come to the conclusion that the bible is an erroneous sack of garbage, so who should we believe? I won't believe some fool standing in front of a group of people telling me stuff about how god is great and forgiving and worship him and you will go to heaven. The 'evidence' that is given to us is flawed, in other words, it is ineligible for consideration in this argument. You yourself said false testimony can be given. The bible is an obvious example of that.

"So, tell me, who can verify that the evidence provided is really that old?".... fossils, dinosaur bones, layers in rocks, carbon dating, all that good stuff can give us a very close estimate to how long things have been around. The bible says 'god created the earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th', and that's IT. No records, no nothing, just 7 days, take it or leave it. I think you would need to have an awful lot of faith to believe in things like that, and for people who say 'Seven days could have meant longer than seven days, it could have been billions of years, blah blah blah', why wouldn't the bible be more specific? Before we even knew that the earth is as old as it is, I'm positive people back in medieval times believed that the earth was made in 7 days. The only reason they think that the bible meant longer is because they use science as their crutch to boster their flawed, tainted, corrupted belief.

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"Shed no tears for me. My glory lives forever!"

Deneiko

Deneiko

7 D A Y S

Nice thread.....

Aaannyway. Don't know if it was asked already but I'm too lazy to check.

How'd you become and Atheist? And do you think it's fair for society to give people like you a "name" just because you're not like them? As in, just because you're not following their teachings, they decide to give you a name (Atheist) to distinguish you from them when they state a lot about equality and freedom of the mind? (wow, that was a mouthful)

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Minato

Minato

...scatter the dream...

Quote by Koutetsu
Ok.. about the 'evidence' of god making everything being provided, and
recorded, where the hell is it? We have already come to the conclusion
that the bible is an erroneous sack of garbage, so who should we
believe? I won't believe some fool standing in front of a group of
people telling me stuff about how god is great and forgiving and
worship him and you will go to heaven. The 'evidence' that is given to
us is flawed, in other words, it is ineligible for consideration in
this argument. You yourself said false testimony can be given. The
bible is an obvious example of that.
"So, tell me, who can verify that the evidence provided is really that
old?".... fossils, dinosaur bones, layers in rocks, carbon dating, all
that good stuff can give us a very close estimate to how long things
have been around. The bible says 'god created the earth in 6 days and
rested on the 7th', and that's IT. No records, no nothing, just 7 days,
take it or leave it. I think you would need to have an awful lot of
faith to believe in things like that, and for people who say 'Seven
days could have meant longer than seven days, it could have been
billions of years, blah blah blah', why wouldn't the bible be more
specific? Before we even knew that the earth is as old as it is, I'm
positive people back in medieval times believed that the earth was made
in 7 days. The only reason they think that the bible meant longer is
because they use science as their crutch to boster their flawed,
tainted, corrupted belief.

You have a point; the Bible should on no account be taken as truth. However...one can have faith in God without believing in what the Bible says, or going to church, even. I respect those who believe, not those who preach.

Quote by Koutetsu
Just as false witness can be given as testimony, false evidence can be
submitted as well. Unfathomable movements of God have been recorded
throughout the millenia. These events have had significant impacts on
believers and non-believers alike. ...However, those who do not believe
choose to waive this evidence. The evidence has been provided. ...You
simply choose to be ignorant of it. ...Exemplified perhaps by your
refusal to read what is not only the best selling book in the World,
but is also one of the most verified historical documents, dating back
hundreds and hundreds of years.
..But some people just don't buy evidence nor testimony. ...But none
the less, both are there.
Incidentally, you don't happen to run around your house wearing a tin
hat and worring about conspiracy theories, do you?

Please give me a source other than the Bible in which these "unfathomable movements of God" were recorded...I'm very interested in reading a more modern account of things.

Quote by ProgramZEROSo what did he tell us? That we came from Adam and Eve
when evidence suggests that we evolved from monkeys?by man?

The theory of evolution does not state that humans evolved from monkeys; it states that humans and monkeys shared a common ancestor that somewhat resembled a monkey. Please research the subject before you post about it...

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by Archer79Regardless of your speculation, which is apparently unsubstantiated by your comments, there really isn't any way to determine what may have or might not have been...

No, there isn't a way to accurately determine what could have been. But one can make an educated guess. If part of the world wasn't such a religious fanatic, Maybe the towers would still be standing.

Quote by Archer79I have pointed you to a reference that can show you what you need to know. I am not obligated to even do that for you.

I don't care what the bible says. It's all garbage. But I want you to tell me what you believe we were saved from and I'm gonna keep asking until you answer. Stop evading the question.

Quote by Archer79What does the knowledge of the Vatican have to do with any of this? Did the Vatican have the means to intervene, or are you getting that at that the Vatican was forced to stand idly by while people were being martyred for their beliefs?

The Vatican was well aware and was more than capable of intervening because a huge percentage of the German population was Catholic, including Hitler.

Quote by Archer79And......In response to the other clutter you provided, none of that is in line with the teachings of Christ. ...It was not Christians alone responsible for those events, and not all Christians embody the teachings of Christ. The participation of those subscribing to Christian views does not change reality....God is good, and loving, and merciful, and real, and incredibly alive.

Only goes to show you that what Jesus taught went completely ignored. Innocent people accused of being witches and being tortured until they confessed to crimes they did not commit. Native Americans forced out of their land by force and blacks being enslaved. Most, if not, ALL were Christian. And I disagree, Christianity embodies the teachings of Christ. That's why it's called Christianity.

Quote by Archer79Just as false witness can be given as testimony, false evidence can be submitted as well.

False witness is so easy to submit and hard to disprove. False evidence is harder to make and submit and much easier to disprove than false testimony.

Quote by Archer79Unfathomable movements of God have been recorded throughout the millenia. These events have had significant impacts on believers and non-believers alike.

So what were these events? You don't have to provide evidence, just list the events done by God.

Quote by Archer79But then, he really isn't obligated to do so. ...This is "Ask the Athiest." Perhaps he or I should ask you for what the scriptures say, and why you believe them to be false?

You guys are so gullible. The stuff the scriptures have to say have no evidence to back them up. Adam and Eve never happened. The Great Flood was impossible. You have to prove to me that scriptures are correct for me to believe them. I don't have to prove them wrong. You guys just fall to your knees before this crap and never ask for evidence. What evidence was presented to you to make you believe the scriptures? And don't give me that 'I have my own evidence' crap. Any evidence good enough for a Christian is good enough for me.

Quote by Archer79It is interesting that someone is attempting to link scientific data to a book he refuses to read...

I'm not going to read the bible anytime soon but I know it tells of Adam and Eve. Science tells us that we came from apes. It tells of the Great Flood but such a small arc could not fit so many animals. The bible has no information on dinosaurs which is suspicious for a God that lived since the beginning of time. The bible tells of heaven being in the sky, the actual sky with the clouds but all we found were clouds. There are so many BS stories in the bible that it's HILARIOUS.

Quote by Archer79You are after all a believer in testimony and evidence, are you not?

I believe more in evidence than in testimony. All the bible is is testimony. No evidence.

Quote by FredGregYou throw my own arguments back at me without understanding them. Being written by men is what makes those scriptures flawed, it's what necessitates taking them in context, it's what makes translations unreliable, it's what puts bias in there. When I say he tells us stuff, I'm referring to something called 'remur words' (I don't know the spelling of that word, & can't find it on Google, so I must be way off), which is when you read & suddenly a passage will strike you as really significant, & not always literally either - it includes your own bias. I know you're not going to believe this, because you don't believe he's there, but if you could accept it for a bit just for the sake of argument you'd hopefully understand what I mean. God told Moses what to write, & probably a lot more, but much of the Bible is testimony. The whole New Testament is anyway - if you thought that was supposed to be the direct word of God, you don't have any idea.

So what text struck you as really significant? What text made you feel like you were speaking to God? Please list them.

Quote by FredGregThe book of Genesis is one that shouldn't be taken literally, again. In other books a 'day' refers to a long period of time, why not there?

I don't think that you are any authority to say that the book of Genesis shouldn't be taken seriously. And when people write a day, they mean a day, not a hundred years or a thousand years. If they meant years, they would say years. If days=years, then 40 years would have been a very long time.

Quote by FredGregIt says he made us from the dust... well, that could still refer to evolution.

No, it refers to dust. The bible says Adam came from dust, not from apes.

Quote by FredGregAlso Heaven isn't supposed to be physically in the sky.

Sure it does. The writers used the word heaven. Heaven meant the sky. The place with the clouds. People believed the stars were light from heaven but they all are large balls of Hydrogen and Helium.

Quote by FredGregBut the main point is that if everyone was atheist, you'd still have war & all the rest of humanity's shittiness, they'd just have to find a new excuse. Like 'we want to.'

Ohh, we would have wars but they would have nothing to do with religion or they wouldn't be caused by religion and there wouldn't be so many. Usually there be wars based on different forms of govt. like capitalism versus communism, not Jesus versus Mohammed. And finding an excuse for not negotiating out problems would be hard.

Quote by FredGregYou can have your Bible & your science.

No you can't. The bible says Adam and Eve. Science says apes. You can't have both. CHOOSE ONE!!!.

Quote by FredGregBut you aren't that tolerant yourself, you know.

I'm not tolerant of people trying to shove their religion down my and the world's throat.

Quote by DeneikoHow'd you become and Atheist? And do you think it's fair for society to give people like you a "name" just because you're not like them?

Good question and a valid one. I used to be Catholic until the day I realized that all the bible is is a book written by man many years ago. That's all it is. All the words in the bible were written by man. Every single word. Nowadays, religion is a wacky way of extracting money from people's insecurities. I have no problem with religion being used to steal money from the ignorant but it becomes a problem when Christians use their Christian lessons and apply them to modern issues. Jesus wouldn't know how to deal with dictatorships or giant planes flying into buildings. But the good news is that the Atheist and Agnostic population is slowly increasing as we move forward into the 21st century. And about us being labeled, well, I don't care what you call us. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Quote by MinatoThe theory of evolution does not state that humans evolved from monkeys; it states that humans and monkeys shared a common ancestor that somewhat resembled a monkey. Please research the subject before you post about it...

I'm plenty sure that the ancestor we evolved from could be called a monkey. Anyways, that's beside the point.

I'd like to ask Christians something.
Do you believe that God intervenes in daily life and cures diseases for those who have faith and helps those in need? Do you think he punishes those who have committed crimes and rewards those who have been good? I'd really like to know what you think.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

FredGreg

FredGreg

Cynical pedant.

I'm basically gonna ignore most of the stuff that's been said, because it's not getting anywhere, we're just going to repeat ourselfs endlessly if we keep at it, but some things I'll answer:

Quote by KoutetsuThe only reason they think that the bible meant longer is because they use science as their crutch to boster their flawed, tainted, corrupted belief.

Flawed? It fits with what we know to be true better than the literalists' beliefs. Tainted? By what? Science? So science is a taint on the lustre of faith now? Corrupted? From what, something you think was wrong from the beginning? If it's so crap, why are you against making it fit? I put it to you, you don't really have any reasons, because you blame us either way - with you, we cannot win; you just hate Christianity, & want to hurt it as much as you can. Face it.

Quote by Deneiko[D]o you think it's fair for society to give people like you a "name" just because you're not like them? As in, just because you're not following their teachings, they decide to give you a name (Atheist) to distinguish you from them when they state a lot about equality and freedom of the mind?

Dude, people like to name things. Equality is about not thinking that certain people are intrinsically worth less than others - if you want everyone totally equal in every respect, you'll fail, because we're not, that's where the term 'individual' comes from. Also, naming something doesn't mean you're saying it's bad. 'Atheist' just means 'not having theological beliefs,' pretty much literally.

Quote by ProgramZEROThe Vatican was well aware and was more than capable of intervening because a huge percentage of the German population was Catholic, including Hitler.

Do you seriously think they all believed? Come off it. If Hitler was really a Christian, following the teachings of Christ, he wouldn't have done it, so he wouldn't have paid attention to the Pope.

Quote by ProgramZEROYou guys are so gullible. The stuff the scriptures have to say have no evidence to back them up. Adam and Eve never happened. The Great Flood was impossible. You have to prove to me that scriptures are correct for me to believe them. I don't have to prove them wrong. You guys just fall to your knees before this crap and never ask for evidence.

'We guys' don't necessarily do that. The only part where we have to believe with no evidence is the bits I've mentioned. Here you are claiming we don't question... yet before you're attacking me (actually that was mostly Koutetsu, but you did a bit) for doing just that? Saying I have to believe it all word for word, that it's either all right or all invalid? That view is as stupid as the people who fit that stereotype you try to apply to the rest of us.

Quote by ProgramZEROI'm not going to read the bible anytime soon but I know it tells of Adam and Eve. Science tells us that we came from apes. It tells of the Great Flood but such a small arc could not fit so many animals. The bible has no information on dinosaurs which is suspicious for a God that lived since the beginning of time. The bible tells of heaven being in the sky, the actual sky with the clouds but all we found were clouds. There are so many BS stories in the bible that it's HILARIOUS.

Until you read it & study it with the circumstances of the time in mind, you haven't got any reason to be saying it can't have any grain of truth. Science tells us that came from ape-like creatures, but it doesn't promise. If you think it does, you have little clue about science either.

Quote by ProgramZEROYou can't have both. CHOOSE ONE!!!

Yes I can. Don't be so simplistic. I just can't have science & Catholicism or any other mainstream denomination. I'm not too bothered by that; as you say, they tend to be money-grubbing farces. So... NO!!!

Quote by ProgramZEROI'm not tolerant of people trying to shove their religion down my and the world's throat.

Fair enough, & neither am I, I admit that freely. But you're not even tolerant of people having faith in things you don't. It doesn't matter if they're wrong, they should be free to think it, as much as you are to think what you do.

Oh yeah & someone said something along the lines of 'What were we saved from then?' The answer is that we were saved from not being able to be with Jesus, a condition we brought upon ourselves unwittingly at the behest of the Devil. Since God gave us free will, he let us do it, but we couldn't get back, so Jesus died to take the blame & we are now able to go back. That's a rough summary, but it answers the question. Whether you believe it or not, that's the basis of Christianity.

I'm leaving this thread now, because it doesn't seem productive to stay. You needn't bother answering me unless you really want to, because unless it's exceptionally intriguing post, you won't get an answer, & prob'ly won't even then (I don't plan to check back often, if at all). But I'll be praying for you, ProgramZERO, & especially you, Koutetsu. I feel that will probably enrage you, but you're so angry about something; it can't be healthy, spiritually or emotionally.

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by FredGreg

Quote by ProgramZEROThe Vatican was well aware and was more than capable of intervening because a huge percentage of the German population was Catholic, including Hitler.

Do you seriously think they all believed? Come off it. If Hitler was really a Christian, following the teachings of Christ, he wouldn't have done it, so he wouldn't have paid attention to the Pope.

BULL.If people could stop the Nazi's from killing the mentally handicapped which were in no way contributing to the economy but taking away, they could stop the gassing of Jews whom were a large source of funding to the war effort. The Nazi's would have settled for slavery and not genocide. Christianity contributed in large to anti-Semitism in Europe for over 1500 years. To this day, anti-Semitism is still a problem.

Quote by FredGreg

Quote by ProgramZEROYou guys are so gullible. The stuff the scriptures have to say have no evidence to back them up. Adam and Eve never happened. The Great Flood was impossible. You have to prove to me that scriptures are correct for me to believe them. I don't have to prove them wrong. You guys just fall to your knees before this crap and never ask for evidence.

'We guys' don't necessarily do that. The only part where we have to believe with no evidence is the bits I've mentioned. Here you are claiming we don't question... yet before you're attacking me (actually that was mostly Koutetsu, but you did a bit) for doing just that? Saying I have to believe it all word for word, that it's either all right or all invalid? That view is as stupid as the people who fit that stereotype you try to apply to the rest of us.

You guys. I can stereotype because ones religion is ones choice and it can affect how one thinks. If one told me they were Christian, I could make an educated guess about how they are. And you have to believe all it teaches because it could mean "eternal damnation" for you my friend. For some reason people cannot realize that the bible is nothing more than a collection of fairy tales that members of a cult wrote. Jesus was just a cult leader who told people they would be promised heaven after they died. They couldn't come back from the dead and reveal him as the liar he was.

Quote by FredGregUntil you read it & study it with the circumstances of the time in mind, you haven't got any reason to be saying it can't have any grain of truth. Science tells us that came from ape-like creatures, but it doesn't promise. If you think it does, you have little clue about science either.

It doesn't WHAT!!!!! Promise? What the hell does a promise have to do with anything??? Circumstances? What? YOU'RE INSANE!!!!! The Adam and Eve fairy tale tells of two people who begun the human race and the bible is very clear about this, that's it. Science tells of monkey-like creatures that we evolved from. The two stories contradict each other. NO if's, and's, OR BUT'S.

Quote by FredGregFair enough, & neither am I, I admit that freely. But you're not even tolerant of people having faith in things you don't.

I'm not tolerant of those people because it's those who are 'faithful' who have tried to shove their religion down my throat.

Quote by FredGregOh yeah & someone said something along the lines of 'What were we saved from then?' The answer is that we were saved from not being able to be with Jesus, a condition we brought upon ourselves unwittingly at the behest of the Devil. Since God gave us free will, he let us do it, but we couldn't get back, so Jesus died to take the blame & we are now able to go back. That's a rough summary, but it answers the question. Whether you believe it or not, that's the basis of Christianity.

And here comes the Christian jibberish. We wouldn't be with Jesus after death? As if anyone has died and come back to tell of Jesus being there. It's all a load of BULL!!! being shoved down your throat. I'm just trying to knock some sense into you. And if you believe in 'original sin', what becomes of the people who follow other gods? What about the babies who suffer SIDS or are born with their brains outside their skulls? Is that God's doing? It probably is with his everlasting power. THANK YOU GOD!!!!! :D

Quote by FredGregI'm leaving this thread now, because it doesn't seem productive to stay. You needn't bother answering me unless you really want to, because unless it's exceptionally intriguing post, you won't get an answer, & prob'ly won't even then (I don't plan to check back often, if at all). But I'll be praying for you, ProgramZERO, & especially you, Koutetsu. I feel that will probably enrage you, but you're so angry about something; it can't be healthy, spiritually or emotionally.

Well, there goes another bible-thumper. Logic is a mystery to them. You should get up off your knees FredGreg, It won't do any good. You are above God. You and me and everyone else, FredGreg, are SUPERIOR to God. We created him 2000 years ago. We are his god.

If you can't take the heat, then you shouldn't take a seat... Hmm... XP Would any of the visitors happen to be writers?

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

Oi atheist, ever had an arguement like this with someone in real life? =P

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

No but it is much faster and easier to express my ideas and arguments in person. It is much faster than typing but there is the constant fear of pissing someone off to the point of violent response.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

AtmaCashino

AtmaCashino

The Destroyer of Everything

I think religion is either a tool that people abuse to gain power, or a way to place the blame of something on someone else, or to explain what they don't understand, although some religions hold more truths than others (i.e. the Yin and Yang from Taoism).

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Prepare for total annihilation!

CyberDragoon

The Prince of Nothing

From one atheist to the Atheist, would you consider that religion is needed in the world? Why or why not?

i think in some ways it is needed. To give people hope even if it is false. Sure false hope can be destructive but it's a lot more fun to believe in a lie than face truth. But that too can end up spiraling towards ignorance and whatnot.

Nighteyes

Nighteyes

Lodbrok

Quote by CyberDragoonFrom one atheist to the Atheist, would you consider that religion is needed in the world? Why or why not?
i think in some ways it is needed. To give people hope even if it is false. Sure false hope can be destructive but it's a lot more fun to believe in a lie than face truth. But that too can end up spiraling towards ignorance and whatnot.

The truth is that needed or not, religion exists and as long it has mass control potential there will be people who'll try to manipulate it. As is the case with most priests here in Greece...
Believing that someone or something will save you no matter the situation you're in, may make you feel relief but by doing that you learn to depend on this and thus you never learn your own true potential.
Also, what happens when God [whatever god] isn't there for you? Is s/he busy with more important matters? 'Cause that was always the answer I got from that question, even before I became an Atheist


Quote by ShyLittleLisaOi atheist, ever had an arguement like this with someone in real life? =P

I have argued with other persons 2 times and the first time it was fun :P

The first time was with one of my buddies. He's a pagan [believer of the ancient greek religion] and quiet hot-headed and stubborn. The conversation ended with him yelling and me laughing :P

The second time was with my cousin, who's and Orthodox Christian. Luckily, he's more calm than my friend but he also got angry at the end and called me "blind" XD

The funny thing is that I didn't do a thing to provoke them. They just don't get how can someone not believe in a god :P

The sharper the knife the easier it is to dull.
The more wealth you possess the harder it is to protect.
Pride brings it's own trouble.
~Lao Tzu

ProgramZERO

ProgramZERO

The Lost Generation

Quote by AtmaCashinoI think religion is either a tool that people abuse to gain power, or a way to place the blame of something on someone else, or to explain what they don't understand, although some religions hold more truths than others (i.e. the Yin and Yang from Taoism).

Religion can be used in many ways. Mostly for bad things. Yin Yang? Hmmm... Not sure what that is. If by Yin Yang you mean Karma then no, that's silly.

Quote by CyberDragoonFrom one atheist to the Atheist, would you consider that religion is needed in the world? Why or why not?
i think in some ways it is needed. To give people hope even if it is false. Sure false hope can be destructive but it's a lot more fun to believe in a lie than face truth. But that too can end up spiraling towards ignorance and whatnot.

Religion is not needed. It's a load with the exception of the religions that only teach morals and don't rely on any deity or supernatural entity or force. And there is no greater hope than "the gun in your hand and the obstacle in your crosshairs". In other words, I prefer certainty over hope. And if there is a lack of certainty then I'll battle whatever obstacle neccessary with confidence and preparation, not hope.

Quote by NighteyesThe truth is that needed or not, religion exists and as long it has mass control potential there will be people who'll try to manipulate it. As is the case with most priests here in Greece... Believing that someone or something will save you no matter the situation you're in, may make you feel relief but by doing that you learn to depend on this and thus you never learn your own true potential. Also, what happens when God [whatever god] isn't there for you? Is s/he busy with more important matters? 'Cause that was always the answer I got from that question, even before I became an Atheist

Religion is a tool of the masses. It can be used to feed off of the insecurities of the people. Religion is a uniting force just like culture, race, nationality etc. It can pit people against each other in large numbers.

Quote by NighteyesI have argued with other persons 2 times and the first time it was fun :P

The first time was with one of my buddies. He's a pagan [believer of the ancient greek religion] and quiet hot-headed and stubborn. The conversation ended with him yelling and me laughing :P

The second time was with my cousin, who's and Orthodox Christian. Luckily, he's more calm than my friend but he also got angry at the end and called me "blind"

The funny thing is that I didn't do a thing to provoke them. They just don't get how can someone not believe in a god :P

There's a certain satisfaction in defeating someone verbally. Bible-thumpers are some of the most interesting people to have a conversation with. As of now, I have an anatomy class in which the teacher is very religious and so are many of the students. I can't wait for an opening that will allow me to reveal my Atheism. Then, I can argue away.

Sleeping peacefully on the edges of No Man's Land... Not all good is rewarded, not all evil is punished.

jaszi5

jaszi5

~Art lover~

I appauld you for welcoming religious threats from all the religious groups out their... I can't stand them... I believe everyone should make up their own mind on religion..not be forced to follow something because of family or outside pressure. Religion is always a touchy topic.. again I appauld you for willness to be critisiced. I also believe that all the God's are probably jus one thing..so every religion is praying to the same thing..I mean that would make more sense... I see all the violence and hatred around the world all revolving around relgion and it's just sad...

Jaszi5

A skeptic states...

"i am perfectly content as a non-Christian. I do not believe in an afterlife and would never consider a religion so restrictive and exclusive as Christianity anyway."

Answer:

You are content as you are -- fair enough. If contentment is what you are after, the Christian faith may not have much to say to you for a while. But lots of things that bring contentment are not true. Would you be willing to consider something if it disturbed your contentment, but might actually be true?

How do you know that there is no conscious existence after death? The main reason that people claim to not believe in an afterlife is that they think that the idea is a naive wish-fulfillment in the face of the fear of death.

But disbelief in an afterlife could have the same intellectual status. It could be the hopeful wish that there might be no accountability to anyone after we die, and the hope that there is no intrusive authority in our lives before that time.

Christian exclusiveness starts with the idea that the Gospel of Christ is true in a way that will exclude some other claims to truth. Is this so arrogant? Everybody in the world who has any religious or metaphysical convictions believes that the majority of people in the world are wrong about their religious and metaphysical convictions.

For example, you exclude my convictions. But that's okay. We can talk about it much better knowing where we both stand -- two absolutists having a civil discussion.

Text author: Richard B. Keyes, Director of L'Abri MA, a residential study center in Southborough, Massachusetts. L'Abri was founded in Switzerland by the late Dr. Francis Schaeffer in 1955. Mr. Keyes is also and author and lecturer. Since 1997 he has served as an AIIA Resource Associate (worldviews). Above text provided by AIIA Institute.

Why the Atheist doesn't exist


There can be no such things as an atheist. This is why: Let's imagine that you are a professing atheist. Here are two questions for you to answer: First, do you know the combined weight of all the sand on all the beaches of Hawaii? We can safely assume that you don't. This brings us to the second question: Do you know how many hairs are on the back of a fully-grown male Tibetan yak? Probably not. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that there are some things that you don't know. It is important to ask these questions because there are some people who think they know everything.

Let's say that you know an incredible one percent of all the knowledge in the universe. To know 100 percent, you would have to know everything. There wouldn't be a rock in the universe that you would not be intimately familiar with, or a grain of sand that you would not be aware of. You would know everything that has happened in history, from that which is common knowledge to the minor details of the secret love life of Napoleon's great-grandmother's black cat's fleas. You would know every hair of every head, and every thought of every heart. All history would be laid out before you, because you would be omniscient (all-knowing).

Bear in mind that one of the greatest scientists who ever lived, Thomas Edison, said, "We do not know a millionth of one percent about anything." Let me repeat: Let's say that you have an incredible one percent of all the knowledge in the universe. Would it be possible, in the ninety-nine percent of the knowledge that you haven't yet come across, that there might be ample evidence to prove the existence of God? If you are reasonable, you will be forced to admit that it is possible. Somewhere, in the knowledge you haven't yet discovered, there could be enough evidence to prove that God does exist.

Let's look at the same thought from another angle. If I were to make an absolute statement such as, "There is no gold in China," what is needed for that statement to be proven true? I need absolute or total knowledge. I need to have information that there is no gold in any rock, in any river, in the ground, in any store, in any ring, or in any mouth (gold filling) in China. If there is one speck of gold in China, then my statement is false and I have no basis for it. I need absolute knowledge before I can make an absolute statement of that nature. Conversely, for me to say, "There is gold in China," I don't need to have all knowledge. I just need to have seen a speck of gold in the country, and the statement is then true.

To say categorically, "There is no God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

If you insist upon disbelief in God, what you must say is, "Having the limited knowledge I have at present, I believe that there is no God." Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part, you don't know if God exists. So, in the strict sense of the word, you cannot be an atheist. The only true qualifier for the title is the One who has absolute knowledge, and why on earth would God want to deny His own existence?

The professing atheist is what is commonly known as an "agnostic" - one who claims he "doesn't know" if God exists. It is interesting to note that the Latin equivalent for the Greek word is "ignoramus." The Bible tells us that this ignorance is "willful" (Psalm 10:4). It's not that a person can't find God, but that he won't. It has been rightly said that the "atheist" can't find God for the same reason a thief can't find a policeman. He knows that if he admits that there is a God, he is admitting that he is ultimately responsible to Him. This is not a pleasant thought for some.

It is said that Mussolini (the Italian dictator), once stood on a pinnacle and cried, "God, if you are there, strike me dead!" When God didn't immediately bow to his dictates, Mussolini then concluded that there was no God. However, his prayer was answered some time later.

Excerpted from God Doesn't Believe in Atheists by Ray Comfort

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