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same-sex marriage?

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Quote by DMNY Then again, what can you do when some laws still reflect the bonified hopes of some politicians who wish to uphold a religious (cringes yes I know) standard. Hell, who controls who is beyond me sometimes.

Just to point out... there are really, really good chances that gay marriage could be banned now, but revoked under a different presidency, banned by a new president, then allowed by another... it's really just a cycle of opinions.


Quote by DMNY Too late!!! Oh wait, that would have to be okay if this constitute a matter of national security right? Wonder if Ben Laden is gay? Hmmm...whatever.

Patriot Act doesn't quite tell us what to do, just watches over us.

bin Laden... meh... it's a total sin for his religion, but who knows, being that he's always around males...

Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

Quote by ArinamiYou are terribly impatient, my dear ^_^'

Who? Me?

Quote by Arinami

Quote by Archer79
Arinami, I would suggest that there are other people involved here than
just homosexual couples or their personal lives.
....In my mind, a marriage is the foundation of a family. While a
family can certainly exist without a mom or dad I still see a solid
foundation of a family resting on two loving parents sharing and
upholding the family. I also note that there seems to be certain
attributes that are generally exhibited by women more than men, and
vice-versa. ....Although such an observation could quickly deteriorate
into a debate as to the origin being from nature or nurture, in either
case, the attributes still seem to stand.
I would suggest that a man and woman are the ideal combination for
starting a family. Certainly, should a parent be lost, many families
have been preserved through single-working-parents and/or remarriage.
In cases when the environment is not suitable for the child, many forms
of care help to nurture a child in the absence of the ideal. ...But
it's not the ideal. i would suggest that such a non-traditional pairing
could also provide a significant impact towards the life or upbringing
of the child. I am reasonably confident that you can recall fitting in
at school, and all the challenges that had to be overcome as you
developed into your current, social self. I would imagine it would be
difficult for a child to grow up as a "model child" of a "non-ideal
circumstance". (For either being a "poster child" or generally assured
a "non-ideal circumstance.) Further, I would suggest that the absence
of those special characteristics found in hetero-sexual parents, the
child may have many problems on many levels.
In short, I do not believe in certifying homosexual relationships as a
marriage. ...It's not the ideal. It's not even close in my perceptions.
...And that's not even broaching the ethical question pertaining to
homosexual activity.


*applauds* Truly a heart-warming, motivtional speech on traditional
family values. But please tell me, why is the divorce rate at 50%? This
little fact sort of shoots your ideal family to all hell...
The "traditional family" is ideally something from the 50's or 60's.
Mother stays at home and takes care of the house and the children,
father brings home te bacon, Little Susie and Little Johhny are perfect
students and athletes. They're a kind, loving family, eating dinner at
precisely 6 o'clock and going to church every Sunday. They're involved
with their community, the neighbors love them, and overall, they are
what every family wants to be; perfect.
Having an adult man and woman does not make a family. Single mothers
have and are successfully raising their children, working long hours
but still managing to provide for their children. Men are finding
themselves in the kitchen, getting dinner ready and baking cookies for
their daughter's bake sale because now they're the sole parent. In some
of these cases, in many of these cases, they're single because they
couldn't work things out with their ex-spouse, or because their spouse
cheated, or was abusive.
Are you saying that it's better for them to stay together in order to
live up to the "ideal" image of a family?
That's all it is; an image.
I find it rather rude that you're implying that single parents aren't
as good as raising a child as two parents would be.

I will reiterate that it will simply be more difficult for a single parent to raise a family alone, without the assistance of a spouse. There are many occasions when a family must be broken up, ironically to save those in the family. However, I am grateful that such is not always the case. ...From your statistic, apparently approximately half the time.

I would also like to make a note here. ....Marriage is about commitment. Sex is about lust or physical attraction. Friendship is about caring and genuine, deep appreciation. Love will not last through a whole marriage. ...However, provided the commitment and genuine friendship is there, the love can be restored. I am not lost to the fact that the world is a cold, hard place. Unfortunately, people marry for the wrong reasons. ....Sometimes, people lose their way, and think they found something better. ...And leave, abandoning that commitment and destroying those who depended on it. ...But the occasional failure of a wonderful thing, doesn't make the wonderful thing any less wonderful when marriage endures.

I rejoice that at least some families have been able to take root and flourish in this society, when so much of it seems to be about sex, and so little of it seems to care about the soft emotions and needs of those in it. Marriage is both soft and special. ...It's interesting. ....Studies have shown that those involved in a Christian-based marriage have significantly greater sexual satisfaction. ...There is something to be said for trust. There's something to be said for caring, and there is definitely something to be said for the time-honored tradition we call marriage. It's not just something that came up in the past few years. It works. It works well just the way it is. Trying to stretch something pure and elegant so that it can simply satisfy the recent whims of society and perceptions of what is or is not “okay� in sex is wrong.

Quote by Arinami

Quote by Archer79
I am curious.. Would you have been okay if your parents were both
women? Did you get nothing from your dad? If you didn't have a dad, do
you wish you did? ....Or perhaps you were without a mom, or could
imagine such a circumstance... ...In spite of the non-ideal, you can
grow to be a good, even great - perhaps even the best - person in spite
of the environment you grow in. However, I hope to see the best
possible chances for children. ...I hope you can sympathize.


No, I don't.
When it comes to school and a youngster being teased because his or her
parents are gay... that's a very weak argument. We ALL were teased for
something or another. If anything, a child living under two parents of
the same gender will obviously be more tolerant and acceptant than many
other children will.

i agree. The simple fact that someone may be teased is almost totally irrelevant. However, the “obvious� assertion you made is totally without foundation. The victim may end up being more tolerant or acceptant than some other children. However, there is also the chance that this child will lash out, possibly even violently. ...It seems recent history would show that the downtrodden don't generally tend to become more tolerant or accepting. Rather, they tend to try to change their circumstances. From my perceptions, it is reasonably probable that this child would rebel.

i also note that you failed to even recognize the contributions that are likely to come from the mindset of two spouses from both genders. It is a very important matter in this dillema, and I don't think it is appropriate for you to simply “sweep it under the rug�.


Quote by ArinamiHe or she will find their friends, know their
enemies, just as every other child will, just as we all have.
There is no sancity of a heterosexual couple. Shall we reflect on the
divorce rate again?

Yes, let's do reflect on the divorce rate again. ...It seems totally irrelevant to this conversation. Are you suggesting that by giving a homosexual union the same status as a heterosexual marriage would somehow change the statistics relating to divorce? If not, I would suggest that it has no bearing in this conversation whatsoever. The ideal is wonderful for those who can reach it. For those who can't, it is unfortunate. However, the fact that sometimes marriages fail doesn't make those marriages that succeed any less special.

Quote by ArinamiAs for me... you don't know a thing about be, but I can assure you that
it's far from traditional. And you know what? I'm fine. Maybe you
should realize that the best chances for a child is having somebody to
love them. Maybe two people to loved them. And if those two people
happen to be of the same gender, then so be it. It's amazing that right
now, thousands of children are looking past the "ickyness" of having
two parents of the same gender and only see that they have two parents
who love them, they're a family, while you sit here and degrade them,
as if gay couples are unfit to be parents.
By the way. I have a Aunt who is a lesbian- I've met her partner, who
is my "Uncle".

Interesting. I was totally unaware that there were “thousands of children looking past the “ickyness� of having two parents of the same gender�. Could you please provide a source for this? I am still under the perception that most sources for adoption will not consider a homosexual couple as “married�. I would be even more interested if you could provide an unbiased source showing that they are able to ' look past the "ickyness" of having two parents of the same gender (sic).


Quote by Arinami

Quote by Archer79
Also, I find myself compelled to denounce the implication you made by
bringing up the matter of banning bibles. I believe that this matter
extends far beyond the scope of religious concern. This matter is not
about ruining people's personal lives or forcing religion. Rather, I
perceive this matter as resulting from the increasingly frequent
question of the validity of a "same sex marriage".

You missed the point of me mentioning banning bibles.

Really? I could have sworn you have repeatitively indicated that this matter revolves about ruining people's personal lives. ...Even if you had no intention of making a religiously-oriented assertion about doing so...


This document shows that not only do married couples have greater sexual satisfaction, but they also tend to be wealthier and live longer. :D

Hip-hip hooray for married sex. ...I'm still single, and do without. :-o

Oh, and here's another link from the same site more or less discouraging sex outside of marriage. http://www.medinstitute.org/medical/advisory/July%2019,%202000.htm

arcxero

arcxero

Cast In The Name Of God.

All men/women are created equal.
If this sort of thing is banned the constitution of the United States of America is a lie.

To know what is right and choose to ignore it is the act of a coward.

Quote by Archer79
I will reiterate that it will simply be more difficult for a single parent to raise a family alone, without the assistance of a spouse. There are many occasions when a family must be broken up, ironically to save those in the family. However, I am grateful that such is not always the case. ...From your statistic, apparently approximately half the time.

Difficult financially, yes. But does it necessarily mean that children who grow up with only one parent aren't better off than those who have two parents? Certainly not.

Quote by Archer79
I would also like to make a note here. ....Marriage is about commitment. Sex is about lust or physical attraction. Friendship is about caring and genuine, deep appreciation. Love will not last through a whole marriage. ...However, provided the commitment and genuine friendship is there, the love can be restored. I am not lost to the fact that the world is a cold, hard place. Unfortunately, people marry for the wrong reasons. ....Sometimes, people lose their way, and think they found something better. ...And leave, abandoning that commitment and destroying those who depended on it. ...But the occasional failure of a wonderful thing, doesn't make the wonderful thing any less wonderful when marriage endures.

If the love is gone, no amount of friendship can bring it back. There have been many cases where a couple calls it off but remain good friends. They have their friendship, but not the love.

You're over glorifying marriage too much. It's a commitment between two people who love each other, you are correct on that. However, it's not a "wonderful" thing. Your Christian values are very prominent here.

Quote by Archer79
I rejoice that at least some families have been able to take root and flourish in this society, when so much of it seems to be about sex, and so little of it seems to care about the soft emotions and needs of those in it. Marriage is both soft and special. ...It's interesting. ....Studies have shown that those involved in a Christian-based marriage have significantly greater sexual satisfaction. ...

So... you start off by saying that so much of it seems to be about sex, implying that sex is the wrong reason to marry for, then you jump in with a tid-bit about Christians supposedly having greater sexual satisfaction. See the hypocrisy in it?

Quote by Archer79
There is something to be said for trust. There's something to be said for caring, and there is definitely something to be said for the time-honored tradition we call marriage. It's not just something that came up in the past few years. It works. It works well just the way it is. Trying to stretch something pure and elegant so that it can simply satisfy the recent whims of society and perceptions of what is or is not â??okayâ?? in sex is wrong.

Just what are you trying to say here? That homosexual couples don't have the truth and the caring that straight couples do? That two homosexuals marrying isn't pure and elegant?

So, your only argument here is that marriage is oh-so-great and therefore shouldn't be changed? it's incredibly weak. Things are going to change; our technology is changing, our beliefs our changing, our society is changing, and we're not only seeing whites in high positions, but a variety of people of different races. If you're going to say that marriage shouldn't change, then obviously neither should any of these things. More hypocrisy.

Shallow.

Quote by Archer79
i agree. The simple fact that someone may be teased is almost totally irrelevant. However, the â??obviousâ?? assertion you made is totally without foundation. The victim may end up being more tolerant or acceptant than some other children. However, there is also the chance that this child will lash out, possibly even violently. ...It seems recent history would show that the downtrodden don't generally tend to become more tolerant or accepting. Rather, they tend to try to change their circumstances. From my perceptions, it is reasonably probable that this child would rebel.

i also note that you failed to even recognize the contributions that are likely to come from the mindset of two spouses from both genders. It is a very important matter in this dillema, and I don't think it is appropriate for you to simply â??sweep it under the rugâ??.

What contributions are that? Your beliefs that a child won't be raised properly?

What if, what if, what if...

What if a child lashes out? What if a child doesn't? There's children lashing out right now, and their parents aren't gay. They come from normal lives, and they're still lashing out. Don't pick out only one group in attempts of defending your argument. Any child who is teased poses the risk of lashing out. But out of millions of kids who have and are still dealing with it, how many have?

Unless a child meets with some rather convincing outside force that manages to break through his or her current beliefs and replace them with new ones that contrast the current ones, a child isn't going to rebel against his or her family because of the gender of the parents.

Quote by Archer79
Yes, let's do reflect on the divorce rate again. ...It seems totally irrelevant to this conversation. Are you suggesting that by giving a homosexual union the same status as a heterosexual marriage would somehow change the statistics relating to divorce? If not, I would suggest that it has no bearing in this conversation whatsoever. The ideal is wonderful for those who can reach it. For those who can't, it is unfortunate. However, the fact that sometimes marriages fail doesn't make those marriages that succeed any less special.

Almost as irrelevant as you trying to add that Christians have more satisfying sex lives (bibles as sex toys, who would've guess).

Actually, that wasn't irrelevant. You're trying to glorify marriage as a strong committment, filled with love, friendship, and trust... tell that to the divorce rate, because it begs to differ. That was my point. But now that you mention it...

There obviously won't be a strong ratio of gay couples compared to straight couples. They're the minority, so regardless, any divorces or marriages won't effect the divorce rate much. If you're going to try to use this as something against gay marriage, I strongly advise that you don't. I'm not here to change the divorce rate. I'm here to tell you that your beliefs of a "traditional marriage" are not reflected by American society.

Quote by Archer79Interesting. I was totally unaware that there were â??thousands of children looking past the â??ickynessâ?? of having two parents of the same genderâ??. Could you please provide a source for this? I am still under the perception that most sources for adoption will not consider a homosexual couple as â??marriedâ??. I would be even more interested if you could provide an unbiased source showing that they are able to ' look past the "ickyness" of having two parents of the same gender (sic).

As cheap and superficial as they are, it would do you some good to read through some teen magazines. Seventeen, for example, normally has a "Real Life Story" section and some of the stories have included things about teens either being gay or living with gay families. I myself have gay relatives and so I learned first-hand about accepting and tolerance, and I know others who have. It's the benefit of knowing people.

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/7131
Oh, wait, that's too biased...

And here's a good one for you.. oh, wait, it's biased
http://www.colage.org/research/facts.html

I do suppose it's hard to admit to facts.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2004-03-09-gay-parents_x.htm

Here's a good one:
http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html

Quote by Archer79
Really? I could have sworn you have repeatitively indicated that this matter revolves about ruining people's personal lives. ...Even if you had no intention of making a religiously-oriented assertion about doing so...

Actually, the point was that since Suni said we vote on everything, I could therefore vote to have bibles banned from homes. Sound good?

Quote by Archer79
This document shows that not only do married couples have greater sexual satisfaction, but they also tend to be wealthier and live longer.

Hip-hip hooray for married sex. ...I'm still single, and do without. :-o

Oh, and here's another link from the same site more or less discouraging sex outside of marriage. http://www.medinstitute.org/medical/advisory/July%2019,%202000.htm


So let gays get married!

Archer, Sunira and Arinami....Bravo on standing on your grounds while the thread has been heated, you have still been able to keep yourself off the flaming path (would be so easy but useless then isn't it?). Constant smart exchange, I'm really happy to see this much.
Thanks for all the other who had taken the time to share your opinions on the matter. Maybe we can continue this..Maybe not but I think Aya would have enough here to fill her mind with ^__^.
Cheers all.

i just think that people should be tolerant of others no matter what tyey're like. if people love the same sex, whats so wrong with that? its who they are, not something that you choose. someone cant say, okay, i choose not to fall in love with this person. if theres anything ive learned so far in life, its that love is not a rational thing. so i support same-sex marriages, cos i think that people who are being themselves are cool. :)

and just a side note, (and i mean no disrepect to any religion) if someone uses only the argument that only a guy and a woman can have babies so that must be the only right way, i totally disagree with that kind of thinking. its true, thats the only natural way to have a baby, but its not like thats all what life's about, right? having babies is awesome, and i want a child of my own one day, but my whole life isnt gonna be about trying to have a child, and i dont think that one reason alone should be used in an argument that same-sex couples are morally wrong.

darkspiral486

darkspiral486

Carpe Annum

No offense, Archer, but I find one or two problems with your earlier arguments. As you said earlier:

*I would also like to make a note here. ....Marriage is about commitment. Sex is about lust or physical attraction. Friendship is about caring and genuine, deep appreciation. Love will not last through a whole marriage. ...However, provided the commitment and genuine friendship is there, the love can be restored. I am not lost to the fact that the world is a cold, hard place. Unfortunately, people marry for the wrong reasons. ....Sometimes, people lose their way, and think they found something better. ...And leave, abandoning that commitment and destroying those who depended on it. ...But the occasional failure of a wonderful thing, doesn't make the wonderful thing any less wonderful when marriage endures.

I rejoice that at least some families have been able to take root and flourish in this society, when so much of it seems to be about sex, and so little of it seems to care about the soft emotions and needs of those in it. Marriage is both soft and special. ...It's interesting. ....Studies have shown that those involved in a Christian-based marriage have significantly greater sexual satisfaction. ...There is something to be said for trust. There's something to be said for caring, and there is definitely something to be said for the time-honored tradition we call marriage. It's not just something that came up in the past few years. It works. It works well just the way it is. Trying to stretch something pure and elegant so that it can simply satisfy the recent whims of society and perceptions of what is or is not �okay� in sex is wrong.*

I would first like to point out that gay marriage is not all about sex, which is the opinion you implied in that quote. Many homosexual couples truly love each other and seek a partnership that has greater meaning than a few words. You made the point yourself: Many heterosexual marriages these days are purely for sex or money. If you have no problem with heterosexual couples getting married for those reasons, how can you object to homosexuals doing the same thing? And how could you be so shallow as to assume that all homosexual marriages are about sex? No offense, but that is along the lines of saying that every Muslim alive is a terrorist. In fact, most Muslims are ashamed of how terrorists act, but are unable to do anything about it.

Secondly, to counter the last couple sentances of that post, which goes like this:

*It works. It works well just the way it is. Trying to stretch something pure and elegant so that it can simply satisfy the recent whims of society and perceptions of what is or is not *okay* in sex is wrong.*

Firstly, what is it about gay sex that makes it *wrong*? Is it the fact that it is not used to reproduce? That is very true. Let me ask you a question, however. Every time you (if you are married) or, say, your parents(if not), had sex in your/their lives, it was to bear a child, right?
Of course not. So, by that same standard, aren*t all those sexual experiences *wrong*?

Secondly, you must keep in mind that it was *wrong* to have people of different races marry not all that long ago. Why? Because it *worked* to treat African-Americans and Hispanics and Orientals and Indians as second rate citizens. *It worked great!* any white man would say. What about the people on the other side of the argument?

Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

Umm... I do object to people getting married when all they care about is lust or money. I would have thought that would have been obvious from the post, but oh well...

I don't understand why people are bringing up race-oriented comments. I have made no comments in this area. ...In fact, in other threads, I've posted that I feel the only way we're really going to finally end racism is through inter-racial marriage.

However, this matter is different. This is about the foundation of a family. I have reworded this as much as I can. ...Please go back and read my original post if you haven't already.

Let me ask... Technology is indeed becoming more advanced. Shall we consider Sex-bots/androids of the future to be suitable marriage partners? ...I figure they could possibly be even greater parents... ...At the same time though, I find such a concept quite unnatural.

...And although there may be those who think I must be married to my computer, I assure them all that I'm not. ;)

Also, there are those people (irrelevent of other sexual preference) who may consider being *intimate* with something not human? Should we also provide the same rights and status to such a relationship? Even if they can demonstrate the presence of love, etc? ...I will also assert the contrary.

(At this time, I wish to clarify that there is no implication intended here towards anyone of the homosexual or heterosexual orientation. Rather, I am exaggerating the situation for greater expression.)

I remain concerned for the children that would inevitably become involved in this situation. I remain concerned for the foundations of families, extending far beyond the scope of this conversation. ...And I find myself further concerned about the high divorce rate (I knew about this before this conversation.), and the weakening sincerity/solemnity of the bond of marriage.

Marriage is something very precious to me. Someday I hope to abide, serve and grow within its confines. I hope that someday I might even be able to find someone that wants to also.

I see little reason to continue adding information at this point. I have contributed sufficient information to convey my point. I don't feel I should be taking the time to defend myself against assertions that I may be racist, that I may think that all Muslims are terrorists (?! Which I certainly do not...) or the appropriteness of the bible as a "sex toy". My perspectives, as relevent to this conversation, have been stated.

The responses have varied between good, solid responses and weak responses that attempt to debunk a portion of a concept or some implication the wording may have left. Certainly, I have learned a bit from this exchange, which will help build me for the future. I will definitely need to see how the divorce rate flutuates within the homosexual relationships when compared to those of heterosexuals. I realize it will probably take years for these marriages to gain sufficient age to develop a sufficient sampling, but I definitely have become curious.

Of course, if I see something I haven't addressed before, I might still pipe up. (Even though it seems folks tend to discount my personal views since they apparently consider them entirely in-line with certain religious views.)

Until then, I encourage everyone to keep in mind the treasures that are at stake, and to be careful in today's high-pressure social environment.

Quote by ArinamiThe intelligence on these boards is amazing!
/end sarcasm.
I'm pro-gay marriage, for those of you who won't take the time to read
through this.
Concerning those who quoted the bible... .. the bible is not
our law. The bible is a bunch of stories created during the time when
Jesus was hop-scotching around the earth. Out of thousands of stories
that were made, only a select few were picked. So, take into
consideration that the bible is made up of he-said-she-said shitick. As
for those saying that "gayness is a sin"... the bible also says that
fathers can sell off their daughters and that slavery is okay. Is it?
Obviously not. It's funny how you choose to only believe certain things
from that book. God has yet to come down and say "Joo can't be gay,
fooo!11!" nor is anybody else. i think all of you should open up your
minds a bit. This is why the Christian religion has such a bad name;
most of you are incredibly ignorant.
Homosexuality is unnatural!!11... and? Or so you think it is.
But for the record, homosexuality has been found in animals, so it's
more natural than you think. None the less, this is not a good reason
for you to attempt to force your twisted beliefs onto others.
It's gross! Who's forcing you to watch it? Don't like it, don't
think about it. And for the gay-PDA complainers... don't attack just
one group. You think you have a right to make out with your dearly
beloved in a public area, why shouldn't anybody else?
Overall, the immaturity and lack of good argument in this thread makes
me think that most of you need to grow the heck up. What it boils down
to is it's none of your business. Whatever happens in somebody
else's life and bedroom is none of your concern. So put down your
bible, stop making protesting signs, and mind your own damn business.
Homosexuals are people, and in America, they're American citizens. They
should have the same rights as everybody else has, not to be dictated
by personal beliefs formed by a near fairy-tale.
Marriage is between two people who love each other. Fin.
And by the way, it's not the religious union people think it is.

i totally agree with this!! Arinami said it all! .....n e wayz, comparing this to the whole civil rights struggle just solidifies the argument for equality (remember, back then white folks viewed integration like a sin, it took years and years to get people to -->ACCEPT EQUALITY<--....see the similarity?)....the unnatural argument i just dont get, i mean, i dont think people can control what sex they find attractive, and those who think they CAN are just unhappy with what they really are...

I was looking at this thread and my eyes went over to the right side of the page. And there, with the ads by google, said this

-" The Gay Wedding Song"
" I DO " same sex wedding song Support marriages. Free preview!

-Born Gay? pro/con
Nature v. Nurture? When is sexual orientation determined?

Interesting.... whatever.

SRVHS Anime club! Now showing: Futakoi Alternative, Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu.
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vode

vode

Banned For Inactive

i reckon its all right to like someone with the same sex but iono about marriage..iono maybe im racist...just sounds weird...=x

--o'.'---o

AngelicRhapsody

AngelicRhapsody

Mmm...Yaoi...

I'm for same-sex marriages. I don't think that anyone has the right to tell someone that they can't marry because of something they can't help. In my opinion homosexuality is biological, it's determined before you are born. So saying that gays and lesbians can't marry is like saying that Italians or redheads (no offense meant, I'm Italian myself) can't get married. I don't think that anyone would choose to be homosexual. Why would anyone choose to go through so much pain and suffering? Why would anyone choose to be hated and ridiculed and discriminated against because of who they love?

Quote by Rebel428It is also extremely important for children to have both a mother and a father in their life, as both sexes each have important, unique contributions to parenting; in a same-sex pair, one will always be missing. The effects on a child with two parents of the same sex are similar to the effects of a child raised by a single parent - increased tendencies toward delinquency, alcohol, and so forth.
This is almost a moot point to discuss anyway, as only a very small percentage of homosexual couples actually adopt. (Not to mention that, among children adopted by homosexual parents, there is a very strong tendency towards some form of sexual or other abuse by the parents.)

Rebel 428, all right look, I'm just a 19 year-old sophmore psychology major and I don't claim to know everything or claim that my opinions and beliefs are right or whatever, but one thing that I do know for a fact is that children who live with same-sex parents are not more likely to be delinquents, alcholics, drug users or whatever. Believe me, I wrote an 8 page paper on the topic. I have articles written by professionals who have done studies, and I don't just have one or two, no I have like 20, and they all show the same results. Children of homosexual parents are no different than children of heterosexual parents. And these articles are not from Time magazine either, their from scholarly peer-reviewed journals. Also, children with divorced parents (no offense meant to anyone who's parents are divorced, this is just what I learned in my Childhood and Adolesence class and when I was researching my paper) are more at risk for psychological problems than children of same-sex parents. Since divorce is so detrimental, does that mean we should make it illegal too?

And one more thing, I would really like to know where you got your information stating that homosexuals are more likely to abuse children. I don't really have info on that subject, but I didn't come across anything that would prove what you are claiming.

Oh and to go along with the 'the Bible says it's wrong' reasoning that some Christians are quite fond of using, the Bible also says that divorce and premarital sex are. It also says that women are 'unclean' for a week after they give birth to a boy and for two weeks after they give birth to a girl. Women are also 'unclean' during and for a week (I think) after their period. You don't see people today following those 'rules' or whatever you want to call them. So what? We can just pick and choose what we want to follow and abide by in the Bible? Look, I'm a Christian, I believe in God, I may not be the most religious person in the world, but I do believe in God, but you can't just take what the Bible says at face value, every piece of literature (be it fiction, non-fiction, scientific research, the Bible, or whatever) can be interpreted in any number of different ways. You can't just say 'The Bible says it's wrong, so it's wrong' because nothing in life is that simple, that black and white. A really good book to read is 'My Son Eric' by Mary V. Borhek. It's about a very religious (Christian) mother coming to terms with and learning how to deal with her son's homosexuality. It's a book I think every one should read.

*gets off of her soapbox* Ahem...wow...I wrote a lot...in case you can't tell, this is a subject that I feel very strongly about. Just a bit of a disclaimer: this is my opinion, I'm not claiming that it's right or anything, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This is just how I feel about this subject, that's all. I apologize if I came off sounding like a know-it-all, because that was not my intention. I don't know it all, nor do I claim to. I know what I have researched and I have my opinions, that's all. So yeah...I think I'm done rantinng now... ^_^' Oh...and everyone should check out the book that I wrote about...it's really good, in my opinion anyway.

Apparently I had a momentary lapse of sanity which I have yet to recover from.

Kuzain

eeto...uumo...

It is important that a child have good role models and it does help if those role models are both male and female, but those role models do not have to live under the same roof nor be married. Like AngelicRhapsody said, there's nothing to suggest children raised by gay parents suffer any problems. And certainly, with the number of divorces among this countries heterosexual population, no one can claim that two loving same-sex parents will not be better than a single parent raising a child.

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Osaka-san!

Ebichu-desu

Kawaii-radio man

I, myself, have nothing wrong with same sex marriages as long as it is treated the same way a normal marriage. Keep it private and dont shove it in peoples faces and im good.

The wind will not bend because you will it to, you must take action for the result
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Archer79

Nerdly Ghost

AngelicRhapsody, thanks for your contribution to this thread. It's nice to know that children may be less affected by this than I had originally thought.

Regarding the uncleanliness, I think you can find that in Leviticus. (sp?) ...Anyhow, some of these rules are considered not to apply anymore, due to changes in circumstance, etc. (Such as the consumption of pork.) Whether those are among them... ...I dunno.

Thanks again. :)

Elvandro

Elvandro

Orang ganteng lewat

dam, i hate homosexual, they denay god.

that more lower than animal, even animal never do that

Quote by Elvandrodam, i hate homosexual, they denay god.
that more lower than animal, even animal never do that

Signs of true intelligence :sweat: Some people don't even try to cover up their ignorance...

Be Free and Masturbate

Yepyep

Yepyep

Japanese Freak

It's fine with me.

"Revenge is a dish best served cold." --- Old Klingon Proverb

AngelicRhapsody

AngelicRhapsody

Mmm...Yaoi...

Umm... I know that this is a bit off topic, but since it's a reason that is often used as to why same-sex marriages are wrong, I thought I'd post. Anyway, I noticed a couple of posts about how children with same-sex parents might be more likely to be teased by their peers and I thought I'd put my two cents in...again... ^_^' Anyway...just as a note, all of this information is coming directly from a paper I wrote last semester on the possible effects that being raised by same-sex parents could have on child development.

Actually, according to my research, children with same-sex parents are at no more of a risk to be teased to be teased or bullied, or even to have psychological problems or problems with making friends than children of heterosexual single mothers (1).

Children raised by lesbian mothers are just as well adjusted as children that are raised by two heterosexual parents. The only difference found was that the children raised by lesbian mothers were "slightly less confident about their physical skills and cognitive abilities" due to a lack of a father. But it wasn't a very significant difference (2).

In another study that compared children with lesbian mothers, children of single heterosexual mothers, and children that were conceived via donor-insemination, but had two heterosexual parents, the children of lesbian mothers were found to be no less psychologically adjusted and were no more likely to have emotional or behavioral problems than children from other family types. Between the three groups, there was no difference in how accepted the children felt by their peers and mothers (3)

One problem I have with these articles is that most of the studies focused on lesbian couples and single parent households or heterosexual couples who had children through donor insemination. Although I do have some sources somewhere in my desk that have looked at 'normal' heterosexual couples (ie have naturally conceived a child) and the results are pretty much the same.

Well...I think I'm done now...probably...anyway...I just felt the need to stick my two cents in and hopefully help shed some light on this particular aspect of the debate. Again...I really hope that I don't come off sounding like I think I have all the answers, because believe me I don't (wish I did though...then I would have my stupid 13 page history paper done by know...grrr....but anyway a bit off topic there...yeah...where was I? Oh yeah...) So umm...yeah...I don't think I know everything because I wrote a paper on the topic, I just happened to stlll have the paper and articles in my desk and thought I'd support my argument...that's all!

(1) Golombok, Spencer, and Rutter (1983)
(2) Brewaeys, Ponjaert, Van Hall, and Golombok (1997)
(3) Golombok and Tasker (1994)

All of these were cited in a 2000 article by Mooney-Somers and Golombok, entitled Children of lesbian mothers: from the 1970s to the new millenium. This article can be found in the journal Sexual and Relationship Theory, Volume 15(2), pgs. 121-126.

i have more articles if anyone is interested in reading them...I don't have any links to them though because they were all photocopied from copies of the journals that my college's library has. I can give you the author, title, journal, article, page numbers, etc, though.

Apparently I had a momentary lapse of sanity which I have yet to recover from.

Kuzain

eeto...uumo...

Quote by AngelicRhapsodyOne problem I have with these articles is that most of the studies focused on lesbian couples and single parent households or heterosexual couples who had children through donor insemination. Although I do have some sources somewhere in my desk that have looked at 'normal' heterosexual couples (ie have naturally conceived a child) and the results are pretty much the same.


Of the gay male couples I know, none of them are looking to adopt. While I don't want to sound sexist, men generally form a bond to a child through hardship or out of obligation. Men who have been through traumatic experiences with a child will grow attached to them (though this is generally true of anyone with anyone else. Traumatic experiences bring their survivors together) otherwise it is generally attachment formed out of obligation (ie: the child is the man's, a relative of the man's who cannot be taken care of, or the child of a woman the man has married).
I'm not saying that all men don't want kids, that's not true. I'm just saying that men have a harder time attaching themselves to children they're not biologically related to than women so I would expect there to be more female couples willing to adopt than male (especially since studies (though all studies on homosexuality are very limited) suggest there are more female couples than male in general).

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Osaka-san!

Sunira

Sunira

www.sunira.net

I guess you could look at this this way:

1. Incest is wrong in the bibles but we dont have any laws to say NO brother cannot marry sister, or 1st cousins cannot marry.
2. Adultery is wrong but we dont have any laws against that. You cant go to jail for sleeping with someone other than your wife.
3. Homosexuality is wrong in the bible but hey look at all the media attention its getting! Frankly, as a christian, I understand your inability to vote FOR something you dont believe to be right. But places like this website:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

scare the crap out of me. Our christian God is a god of forgiveness...not a God of hate. People like this really frighten me...I mean...look at these children...raised being taught hate.
http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2005/20050320_shirts7.jpg

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http://www.sunira.net - my walls, and brushes for you!! <3

DaemonPhyreWyrm

Behold the power of cheese

I'm personally for same-sex (can't we say homosexual anymore, eh?) marriages. Although I disagree with the actual institution of marriage itself, I've never heard or seen a valid arguement against it. If you don't like homosexuals, you know what, TURN YOUR f*cking head, YOU prude, USE YOUR NECK AND don't look. I have a question to you, how does two men or two women getting married affect you? does it make people think less of you? does it get you fired from your job? does it make your significant other(s) leave you? no? I DIDN'T THINK SO, EH?

Inciently, Sunira has just given a good example of why I despise most organized religions.

Ayasal

Ayasal

Return, Into The Mist

Quote by Ayamaelokay... i was surprised to see there wasn't any thread about this
subject... and since i know someone who loves threads that aren't too
easy to answer to (yes, mel, i'm talking about you ^^) i thought maybe
i could start one...
anyways, do you agree with same-sex marriage? Coz' i know there's a
heated debate about it in Canada and the United States, and in lots of
other countries in the world i suppose... in my case, i don't see
what's so wrong with it... i mean, there's this whole "it goes against
traditional values", and "God made us for man-woman relationships" and
so on... but to me, if God didn't accept those, why would he even
create people that have a preference for their own sex? And for the
traditional values argument... it's true, it would change everything...
but sometimes, those values are meant to be changed... i don't know...
i just think homosexuals should have the right to choose... be free to
do so, as heterosexuals are... anyways, i'm curious to know what you
think about this issue... and btw, everyone is entitled to their
opinion, you might disagree, but i don't want any flaming, for
anyone... please ^^


I totally agree with you!! I really don't see anthing wrong with it.

Relinquish your Dreams of Paradise
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cmkmstephens

cmkmstephens

ARrrrrrrggg!

Yeesh, I've never seen a forum with so many disgruntled christians on it out of all the anime related forums I go to.

Footnote: I am not a christian or religious.

If Jesus was supposed to be a man teaching forgiveness and peace among each other, aren't you just defacing his teaching if you claim to be both a christian and against same-sex marriage. Have you ever considered that your campaign against sexual orientation is the work of the devil against gods will of love among people?

I am for gay rights, if the gay personage involved are also christian or whatever, then its their choice to get 'married', rather than get something akin to a civil Union, though I prefer the civil unions, its like an economic boon package you get for loving someone. :P

Cause I've done a wee bit of study of Black civil rights, you could replaced the words gay, homesexual, lesbian, or whatever with Black half the time for a good ole 50-60s time.

New Zealand now has civil unions, which are free from religion, and give people human rights.

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