How We Can Know There Is a God?

Do you Believe in the Existence of God?

I Believe that God exist by His Creations & the Bible
66 votes
I believe that God exist but I don't believe in the Bible
26 votes
I don't Believe in God because I'm an Atheist
46 votes
50/50 (I believe in God but I doubt sometimes)
32 votes

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DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

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One way to determine whether there is a God is to apply this well-established principle: What is made requires a maker. The more complicated the thing made, the more capable the maker must be. :) For example, look around your home. Tables, chairs, desks, beds, pots, pans, plates, and other eating utensils all require a maker, as do walls, floors, and ceilings. Yet, those things are comparatively simple to make. Since simple things require a maker, is it not logical that complex things require an even more intelligent maker?

Our Awesome Universe
A watch requires a watchmaker. What of our infinitely more complex solar system, with the Sun and its planets revolving around it with split-second precision century after century? What of the awesome galaxy we live in, called the Milky Way, with its more than 100 billion stars? Have you ever stopped at night to gaze at the Milky Way? Were you impressed? Then think of the incredibly vast universe that contains untold billions of galaxies like our Milky Way! Too, the heavenly bodies are so reliable in their movements century after century that they have been compared to precision timepieces...

If a watch, which is relatively simple, implies the existence of a watchmaker, surely the infinitely more complex and awesome universe implies the existence of a designer and maker. The universe owes its existence to an invisible, controlling, intelligent power--God...

Earth Uniquely Designed
The more scientists study the earth, the more they realize that it is uniquely designed for human habitation. It is just the right distance from the sun to get the proper amount of light and heat. Once a year it moves around the sun, with just the right angle of tilt, making seasons possible in many parts of the earth. The earth also rotates on its own axis every 24 hours, providing regular periods of light and darkness. It has an atmosphere with just the right mixture of gases so we can breathe and be protected from damaging radiation from space. It also has the vital water and soil needed to grow food...

Without all those factors, and others, working together, life would be impossible. Was all of that an accident? Science News says: "It seems as if such particular and precise conditions could hardly have arisen at random." No, they could not. They involved purposeful design by a superb Designer...

If you went into a fine house and found that it was generously stocked with food, that it had an excellent heating and air-conditioning system, and that it had good plumbing to supply water, what would you conclude? That it all just came about by itself? No, you would surely conclude that an intelligent person designed and made it with great care. The earth was also designed and made with great care in order to provide what its inhabitants need, and it is much more complex and well-supplied than any house...

Also, consider the great number of things that add delight to living. Look at the vast variety of beautifully colored flowers with their pleasant scents that humans enjoy. Then there is the great variety of foods so delicious to our taste. There are forests, mountains, lakes, and other creations pleasant to look at. Too, what of beautiful sunsets that enhance our enjoyment of life? And in the animal realm, are we not delighted by the playful antics and lovable nature of puppies, kittens, and other animal young? So the earth provides many delightful surprises not absolutely needed to sustain life. These show that the earth was designed with loving care, with humans in mind, so that we would not just exist but would enjoy life...

The Amazing Living Cell
What of living things? Do they not require a maker? For example, consider a few of the amazing features of a living cell. In his book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, molecular biologist Michael Denton states: "Even the simplest of all living systems on earth today, bacterial cells, are exceedingly complex objects. Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, . . . each is in effect a veritable microminiaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery . . . far more complicated than any machine built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world."

Regarding the genetic code in each cell, he states: "The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system; it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram. . . . Alongside the level of ingenuity and complexity exhibited by the molecular machinery of life, even our most advanced [products] appear clumsy. We feel humbled."

Denton adds: "The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event." It had to have a designer and maker.

Our Incredible Brain
This scientist then says: "In terms of complexity, an individual cell is nothing when compared with a system like the mammalian brain. The human brain consists of about ten thousand million nerve cells. Each nerve cell puts out somewhere in the region of between ten thousand and one hundred thousand connecting fibres by which it makes contact with other nerve cells in the brain. Altogether the total number of connections in the human brain approaches . . . a thousand million million."

Denton continues: "Even if only one hundredth of the connections in the brain were specifically organized, this would still represent a system containing a much greater number of specific connections than in the entire communications network on Earth." He then asks: "Could any sort of purely random process ever have assembled such systems?" Obviously, the answer has to be no. The brain must have had a caring Designer and Maker...

The human brain makes even the most advanced computers look primitive. Science writer Morton Hunt said: "Our active memories hold several billion times more information than a large contemporary research computer." Thus, brain surgeon Dr. Robert J. White concluded: "I am left with no choice but to acknowledge the existence of a Superior Intellect, responsible for the design and development of the incredible brain-mind relationship--something far beyond man?s capacity to understand. . . . I have to believe all this had an intelligent beginning, that Someone made it happen." It also had to be Someone who cared...

The Unique Blood System
Consider, too, the unique blood system that transports nutrients and oxygen and protects against infection. Regarding the red blood cells, a main component of this system, the book ABC's of the Human Body states: "A single drop of blood contains more than 250 million separate blood cells . . . The body contains perhaps 25 trillion of them, enough, if spread out, to cover four tennis courts. . . . Replacements are made, at a rate of 3 million new cells every second."

Regarding white blood cells, another part of the unique blood system, this same source tells us: "While there is only one kind of red cell, white blood cells come in many varieties, each type capable of fighting the body's battles in a different way. One kind, for instance, destroys dead cells. Other kinds produce antibodies against viruses, detoxify foreign substances, or literally eat up and digest bacteria."

What an amazing and highly organized system! :o Surely anything that is so well put together and so thoroughly protective must have a very intelligent and caring organizer--God...

Other Marvels
There are many other marvels in the human body. One is the eye, so superbly designed that no camera can duplicate it. Astronomer Robert Jastrow said: "The eye appears to have been designed; no designer of telescopes could have done better." And the publication Popular Photography relates: "Human eyes see a far greater range of detail than film does. They see in three dimensions, at a tremendously wide angle, without distortion, in continuous motion . . . Comparing the camera to the human eye isn?t a fair analogy. The human eye is more like an incredibly advanced supercomputer with artificial intelligence, information-processing abilities, speeds, and modes of operation that are far beyond any man-made device, computer or camera."

Think, too, of the way that all the intricate body organs cooperate without our conscious effort. For example, we put many different types of food and drink into our stomachs, yet the body processes them and produces energy. Try putting such a variety of things into the gas tank of an automobile and see how far it goes! Then there is the miracle of birth, the producing of an adorable baby--a copy of its parents--in just nine months. And what about the ability of a child just a few years old to learn how to talk in a complex language?

Yes, the many amazing, intricate creations in the human body fill us with awe. No engineer could duplicate those things. Could they be merely the workings of blind chance? Surely not...

The Supreme Builder
Since any house, however simple, must have a builder, then the far more complex universe, along with the vast varieties of life on earth, must also have had a builder. And since we acknowledge the existence of humans who invented devices such as airplanes, televisions, and computers, should we not also acknowledge the existence of the One who gave humans the brain to make such things?

We can know that there is a God by the things he has made...

The Creator has shown his wisdom through the amazing complexity of what he has made. He has shown that he really cares about us by making the earth just right to live on, by making our bodies and minds in such a wonderful way, and by making so many good things for us to enjoy...
_________________________________________

My beloved MT'ers, I know that many of you doubt the existence of God... I understand what you feel... because I'm an atheist too before.... :) and by also reading the Bible, you'll know that God really exist...

I want you to participate in my thread for you to show your beliefs... and to share what you know about the "existence" and "non-existence" of God...

I know all the cause of "Atheism" in this world, if I'll post it in my thread, this is very long... ^_^' I'll make an another thread for that.. ;)

Post your thoughts in a good manner... I'll appreciate your "good" reasoning

DJZephyr

DJZephyr

MiX iT uP!

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Wow, Dark, deep stuff. But I do agree, the human form (heck, any living creature) is far too intricate to be random chance. The only thing I can add to this is that we are self-aware - YOU explain how something created from random chemical reactions can exhibit such things as subconscious thoughts and dreams, let alone conscious decision-making and thinking.

And as a Christian, I know who my creater is. ;)

Follow your dreams. Honor your vows. MiX iT uP.
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  • Jul 07, 2006

CyberDragoon

The Prince of Nothing

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Quote by DarkIngramWhat is made requires a maker. The more complicated the thing made, the more capable the maker must be.

You're making the assumption that the universe was created and therefore requiring that it has a maker. How can you be sure the universe was made at all?

Quote: These show that the earth was designed with loving care, with humans in mind, so that we would not just exist but would enjoy life...

What about tsunamis and earthquakes. Surely they were not designed for our specific enjoyment? What about famine, disease, and other such things?

Quote: The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event." It had to have a designer and maker.

Scienticts have already created an artificial virus. Sure you can argue that a virus isn't life but it has many of the qualities attributed to life.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-11-13-new-life-usat_x.htm

Quote: "Could any sort of purely random process ever have assembled such systems?" Obviously, the answer has to be no. The brain must have had a caring Designer and Maker...

He is misinterpreting evolution and natural selection. Do not believe for an instant that natural selection is random. Evolution provides an explaination for such complexity.

You've made many comments on how complex we are and how perfect we are. If humans are made perfect then surely a perfect Creator would create other perfect creations. Yet this is not so. Dandelions reproduce without fertilization, yet they retain flowers and produce pollen (both are sexual organs normally used for sexual fertilization) (Mes et al. 2002). Flowers and pollen are thus useless characters for dandelions in terms of sexual reproduction. There are other examples such as the gills in human embryos which serve no purpose.

Quote: . No engineer could duplicate those things. Could they be merely the workings of blind chance? Surely not...

Again, evolution and natural selection does not work on blind chance. That is a misconception.

My words to you is that if God is infinitely complex then that must mean that we cannot possibly understand him or talk about him in any meaningful way. It would simply be beyond our comprehension. It would take a person of infinite intelligence to understand something of infinite complexity. Therefore the Bible would be useless to describe God in any manner being as how it was written by mere mortal men. So my question how can you be certain YOUR Bible describes the correct God? There are many "bibles" out there and for all we know no bible that exists today even describe the ONE TRUE GOD. The Bible cannot describe God for it would have to be able to describe something of infinite complexity. For all we know God wants you to NOT believe in him. How do you know that this is not the case? In short, how can you be certain that God wants you to believe?

Quote: I know all the cause of "Atheism" in this world, if I'll post it in my thread, this is very long... ^_^' I'll make an another thread for that.. ;)

I forgot to add that you do not know the cause of atheism. That requires for you to know the motivations and decisions that every single atheist made to come to his or her choice of atheism over religion. Whatever you say is the cause of atheism how do you know someone out there is the world is not choosing to be an atheist just so that they can show that your cause is incorrect? Forgive the little joke, but that would require God-like omnipotence. Atheism is a choice. Usually it involves a bit of reasoning and logic but that is not always the case.

  • Jul 07, 2006
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well, to find the right answer is to ask the right question right? our human reasonings are limited but our faith isn't... i go believe what i want to believe... its wAAY better than worrying about the end.... -_-

  • Jul 07, 2006
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Quote by teh-hippiewell, to find the right answer is to ask the right question right? our human reasonings are limited but our faith isn't... i go believe what i want to believe... its wAAY better than worrying about the end.... -_-


ahahah agreed. =D

  • Jul 07, 2006

tobiast88

tobiast88

No patience for fools.

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This reasoning is idiotic. It's like throwing a golf ball in the air, then marvelling at the fact that it landing on this particular patch of grass. The fallacy is that the golf ball would have landed anyway. You could only marvel if you predicted where it would land. This is the basis for the anthropic principle: if we are here to observe the universe, then we must have conformed to the laws of the universe. Had the laws of the universe been different, we would have been completely different as well, and other idiots would exclaim "ah how marvellous and well-suited we are to the universe, goddidit for sure!"

You cite Michael Denton. Read this. He's been proved wrong. Oops for you. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/denton.html

About your little thing with eyes... the squid's eye is better designed. It sees in almost complete darkness, has wider angle and also sees in 3-D. Goddy must not have cared about us that much, since he gave the best eye to the squid. Oh well, he's infallible right, there must be a reason.

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, Litterature Nobel Prize winner.
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Wow people still use the blind watchmaker argument?

The Improbability of God

  • Jul 07, 2006
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to quote # DarkIngram from the beginning....

to reject wut he said bout "What is made requires a maker.".... religiously, its true... however scientificly - the Law of Matter states that "matter can neither be created nor destroyed" .... so did anyone make the particles around us?

sure i believe in God.... i believe that we made the things arnd us becuz of the intelligence God gave us...

its ok for ppl to hav different opinions.. we've been doing that since the beginning of time, right? that's what make us human.. our minds and our opinions... ever since Eve and Adam ate from the trees of goods and evil, we believe that human r superior to all other living things..... maybe God made us too smart... hmmmm~

IN CONCLUSION = (haha) God is there if you believe in Him, and he has never existed if you don't believe in Him.... However, one thing for sure, in your darkest hours, God cud b such a morale... ;)

  • Jul 07, 2006

CyberDragoon

The Prince of Nothing

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Quote by DevilofLifethe Law of Matter states that "matter can neither be created nor destroyed" .... so did anyone make the particles around us?

Actually during nuclear fission when a large radioactive isotope is split into smaller fragments the mass of the original atom and the sum of the masses of the fragments are different. There is a small loss of mass (about 0.1%) which had been converted to energy according to Einstein's equation. The law of conservation of matter deals mainly with chemical reactions where the mass of the reactants must equal the mass of the products. This doesn't mean that the law is wrong. You have to take into account special relativity, E=mc^2, and etc.

  • Jul 07, 2006

DarkIngram

DarkIngram

Urzu 7

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Thanks for your post... :) I appreciate your reasoning...

Quote by CyberDragoon You're making the assumption that the universe was created and therefore requiring that it has a maker. How can you be sure the universe was made at all?

If there was no Creator, then life must have started spontaneously by chance. For life to have come about, somehow the right chemicals would have had to come together in the right quantities, under the right temperature and pressure and other controlling factors, and all would have had to be maintained for the correct length of time. Furthermore, for life to have begun and been sustained on earth, these chance events would have had to be repeated thousands of times. But how likely is it for even one such event to take place?

By studying the physical world, from the minute subatomic particles to the vast galaxies, scientists have discovered that all known natural phenomena appear to follow certain basic laws. In other words, they have discovered logic and order in everything that is taking place in the universe, and they have been able to express this logic and order in simple mathematical terms. "Few scientists can fail to be impressed by the almost unreasonable simplicity and elegance of these laws," writes a professor of physics, Paul Davies, in the magazine New Scientist.

A most intriguing fact about these laws, however, is that in them there are certain factors whose values must be fixed precisely for the universe, as we know it, to exist. Among these fundamental constants are the unit of electric charge on the proton, the masses of certain fundamental particles, and Newton's universal constant of gravitation, commonly denoted by the letter G. On this, Professor Davies continues: "Even minute variations in the values of some of them would drastically alter the appearance of the Universe. For example, Freeman Dyson has pointed out that if the force between nucleons (protons and neutrons) were only a few per cent stronger, the Universe would be devoid of hydrogen. Stars like the Sun, not to mention water, could not exist. Life, at least as we know it, would be impossible. Brandon Carter has shown that very much smaller changes in G would turn all stars into blue giants or red dwarfs, with equally dire consequences for life." Thus, Davies concludes: "In this case it is conceivable that there might be only one possible Universe. If that is so, it is a remarkable thought that our own existence as conscious beings is an inescapable consequence of logic."

What can we deduce from all of this? First of all, if the universe is governed by laws, then there must be an intelligent lawmaker who formulated or established the laws. Furthermore, since the laws governing the operation of the universe appear to be made in anticipation of life and conditions favorable to its sustenance, purpose is clearly involved. Design and purpose--these are not characteristics of blind chance; they are precisely what an intelligent Creator would manifest...

Of course, design and purpose are seen not only in the orderly workings of the universe but also in the way living creatures, simple and complex, carry on their daily activities, as well as in the way they interact with one another and with the environment. For example, almost every part of our human body--the brain, the eye, the ear, the hand--shows design so intricate that modern science cannot fully explain it. Then there are the animal and plant worlds. The annual migration of certain birds over thousands of miles of land and sea, the process of photosynthesis in plants, the development of one fertilized egg into a complex organism with millions of differentiated cells with specialized functions--just to give a few examples--are all outstanding evidence of intelligent design...

Some argue, however, that increased knowledge of science has provided explanations for many of these feats. True, science has explained, to a certain extent, many things that were once a mystery. But a child's discovery of how a watch works does not prove that the watch was not designed and made by someone. Likewise, our understanding the marvelous ways in which many of the things in the physical world function does not prove that there is no intelligent designer behind them. On the contrary, the more we know about the world around us, the more evidence we have for the existence of an intelligent Creator, God... :)

Quote by CyberDragoon What about tsunamis and earthquakes. Surely they were not designed for our specific enjoyment? What about famine, disease, and other such things?

Disasters & calamities
If the forces of nature are not to blame, the finger of guilt seems to point to the human element. And, indeed, authorities have recognized that human activities have made our environment both more prone to natural disasters and more vulnerable to them. In the developing nations, a growing need for food forces farmers to overcultivate what land they have or to reclaim land by clearing away vital forest covering. This leads to serious soil erosion. Expanding population also hastens the growth of slums and shantytowns haphazardly built in unsafe areas.

About the diseases, sufferings... I've a thread for that...

Why Does God Allow Us to Suffer?

Quote by tobiast88 About your little thing with eyes... the squid's eye is better designed. It sees in almost complete darkness, has wider angle and also sees in 3-D. Goddy must not have cared about us that much, since he gave the best eye to the squid. Oh well, he's infallible right, there must be a reason.

I know your point.. :) but it doesn't mean that squid are better than man... :D

man is "in God's image" in that he was created with moral qualities like those of God, namely, love and justice.

He also has powers and wisdom above those of animals, so that he can appreciate the things that God enjoys and appreciates, such as beauty and the arts, speaking, reasoning, and similar processes of the mind and heart of which the animals are not capable. Moreover, man is capable of spirituality, of knowing and having communication with God. For such reasons man was qualified to be God's representative and to have in subjection the forms of creature life in the skies, on the earth, and in the sea...

I'll post again, thanks for all your replies.. :D I'm too busy in my work... :D

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There are so many fallacies in your arguments I don't even feel like picking them apart. Hell anyone with over a grade school education should realize how weak they are. But here's something that annoys me even more. People like you always skip an entire step.

1. The world is too complicated for me to understand so it must have been a magical super-being.
2. ? ? ? ? ?
3. MY specific god did it.

Why? Why YOUR god? Where do you get the Christian god from all of this? How do you go from "World is complicated" to "Jesus"? Why not Zeus? Allah? Thor? Ra? Santa? Why not a thousand gods? Maybe I think the world is too complicated for only 1 god, so it must have been millions of gods working for millions of days to make the universe! You're skipping an entire step! What the hell points to YOUR god in particular? A watch isn't made by a single person. Many people go into creating watches...designers, engineers, inventors, factory workers. Maybe there's a seperate god for every part of the thought process that goes into creating everything that exists?

You know why you're trying to trick people away from science with your faulty logic? Because science is actually a threat. Science is real and it can make your all mighty god disapear in a puff of logic. Why aren't you arguing against Islam? Why not Hindus? Why not Judaism? Why not the Matrix? Why aren't you arguing that we're not all figments of Suzumiya Haruhi's imagination? I'll tell you why, because they're all on the same level of fiction as your religion. Science scares you so you lash out against it and try to drive people away from it.

Unfortunately science will always get stronger. Your religion is no better than the thousands of dead religions over the centuries of human civilization. You can try to keep people ignorant forever but it will only slow the inevitable. Sorry.

  • Jul 08, 2006

royaldarkness

royaldarkness

Restless Soul

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Quote by PlunkiesThere are so many fallacies in your arguments I don't even feel like picking them apart. Hell anyone with over a grade school education should realize how weak they are. But here's something that annoys me even more. People like you always skip an entire step.

1. The world is too complicated for me to understand so it must have been a magical super-being.
2. ? ? ? ? ?
3. MY specific god did it.

Why? Why YOUR god? Where do you get the Christian god from all of this? How do you go from "World is complicated" to "Jesus"? Why not Zeus? Allah? Thor? Ra? Santa? Why not a thousand gods? Maybe I think the world is too complicated for only 1 god, so it must have been millions of gods working for millions of days to make the universe! You're skipping an entire step! What the hell points to YOUR god in particular? A watch isn't made by a single person. Many people go into creating watches...designers, engineers, inventors, factory workers. Maybe there's a seperate god for every part of the thought process that goes into creating everything that exists?

You know why you're trying to trick people away from science with your faulty logic? Because science is actually a threat. Science is real and it can make your all mighty god disapear in a puff of logic. Why aren't you arguing against Islam? Why not Hindus? Why not Judaism? Why not the Matrix? Why aren't you arguing that we're not all figments of Suzumiya Haruhi's imagination? I'll tell you why, because they're all on the same level of fiction as your religion. Science scares you so you lash out against it and try to drive people away from it.

Unfortunately science will always get stronger. Your religion is no better than the thousands of dead religions over the centuries of human civilization. You can try to keep people ignorant forever but it will only slow the inevitable. Sorry.

i'm with you there. that's exactly what i was thinking, why is it always, ALWAYS, their God, but not other religion's God? The reason they give would probably be 'because Jesus is the ONE TRUE GOD'. yeah right.

ajb

ajb

mr.hat

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wow....soooooo many smrt ppl here @___@ lol

okie, first of all....watch this video: ^__^
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2722260
lol

aaaanyways, i like ur post plunkies
but do u think there will ever be a point in time where science will explain everything?
when spirituality and religion and the supernatural, etc. were all proved to be non-existant?

certainly if there were...
not everyone will embrace it wit open arms

i believe that whether true or not (and im leaning towards not)
religions do sumptin for this world and its ppl more than jus explain how the world was created
(yes, it has had its bad moments...but i hope n think the good moments outshine it)
and i think this 'sumptin' is wut some ppl want/need in their lives
true or false

btw, we cant really kno there is a god....
all we can do is believe
i mean, isnt that the point of the supernatural?
that it cant be explained or proved?
therefore, u cant really kno it exists?

  • Jul 08, 2006
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Quote by teh-hippiewell, to find the right answer is to ask the right question right? our human reasonings are limited but our faith isn't... i go believe what i want to believe... its wAAY better than worrying about the end....

yes... i think that the reason why people refuse to believe the supernatural is because of our limited human reasoning.
we doubt what our senses could not percieve.

this is where faith comes in.

"faith must be used to handle intangible truth."[i][/i]

btw... people shouldn't compare our organs/senses with that of an animal and say the animal's is better. it's almost like saying animals are better than man.

:D

  • Jul 09, 2006

tobiast88

tobiast88

No patience for fools.

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Animals, in many respects, are better than man. The cheetah runs at 60 mph; the squid's eye is better than ours; ants can lift about 60 times their own weight; birds can fly; frogs can live in and out of water; need I go on? Goddy obviously doesn't care about us that much, since he forgot all the cool stuff on us other animals can do. Your complaint would be that we have intelligence; well, since we're so much weaker than the other animals, we developed it to survive. Each species has its advantages and disadvantages, and humans are by no means privileged. If you think we're so great, go meet a bear face to face.

Another complaint darkingram voiced was that man "was created with moral qualities like those of God, namely, love and justice.

He also has powers and wisdom above those of animals, so that he can appreciate the things that God enjoys and appreciates, such as beauty and the arts, speaking, reasoning, and similar processes of the mind and heart of which the animals are not capable. Moreover, man is capable of spirituality, of knowing and having communication with God. For such reasons man was qualified to be God's representative and to have in subjection the forms of creature life in the skies, on the earth, and in the sea..."
So we have morals? I don't see the chimps killing each other over land. Chimps love their offspring and nurture them. Chimps, when there is an argument, have sex to calm down and solve things peacefully by sharing usually. Now, the problem of spirituality. Honestly, having seen what it does, I'm not sure it's the mark of the civilised. How many atrocities in goddy's name? In the name of any higher power, in fact? You are asserting that since we have spirituality, we are qualified "to have in subjection the forms of creature life in the skies, on the earth, and in the sea..." Frankly, this is scary. Goddy gives us the right to rape the earth, because we were made in his image. You are dangerous and insane. The only way any life is going to go on on this planet is if we respect it a little. We do NOT have control over all of nature: case in point, tsunamis and hurricanes, global warming and species extinction.

And, darkingram, you ignored the whole point of my post (ignoring the arguments that bother you - how original, and how convenient). My point was, "It's like throwing a golf ball in the air, then marvelling at the fact that it landing on this particular patch of grass. The fallacy is that the golf ball would have landed anyway. You could only marvel if you predicted where it would land. This is the basis for the anthropic principle: if we are here to observe the universe, then we must have conformed to the laws of the universe. Had the laws of the universe been different, we would have been completely different as well, and other idiots would exclaim "ah how marvellous and well-suited we are to the universe, goddidit for sure!""
Care to answer it this time around, or will you plug your ears and eyes and shout "heresy! goddidit! burn the heathen!"?

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, Litterature Nobel Prize winner.
Join the groups!
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Persocom01

Persocom01

Seeker of the Truth

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It's unfair to judge animals as better than man based on individual capablities. A cheetah is faster than man but can it use tools? A squid might have a "better" eye than man but can he build buildings? An ant can life 50 times it's own weight but it isn't remarkable once you understand physics. After all those example of animals being "better" than man can you state that animals are superior to man?

It is obvious that man has more dominion over the earth than any other animal. Mankind alone is capable of comprehending and questioning his existance, to commit suicide, to hold beliefs so dear that it surpasses the value of his life, and to deny himself of his desires. Which animal has trancended it's base instincts the way mankind has?

We certainly have morals. However we also have the right to decide to do evil. Mankind does not differ much on what he calls evil. He only differs much as to what evils he calls exusable. Animals follow their instincts. They do not know the concept of good and evil.

As for "It's like throwing a golf ball in the air, then marvelling at the fact that it landing on this particular patch of grass. The fallacy is that the golf ball would have landed anyway."...

Use your own common sense, and think for yourself, instead of relying on some infidels.org for arguments to point out others faults. You certainly cannot prove God exists, but you also cannot prove the negative. If you choose to believe that there is no God, so be it. Live your own life, but remember that with choice comes responsibility.

  • Jul 09, 2006

fenglinyin

fenglinyin

My another world

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Yeah,maybe there's no standard answer to it ,if you believe so ,God exits on where but in your heart ,if you don't believe so,God won't be in your mind,so just all depend on your own will
As to me ,I believe there is a God ,just exists in ower world,he watches us ,watches us living ,working,doing right things or the wrong ones,he would give us a jugement when we die and go to another world,he is probably waiting

My own world,my big big world
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Well, I was going to write out a long arguement against every point you made, but like 50 guys beat me to it. That means I can say the simple ideas.

You can never know either way. Its easy to throw up theories, and even easier to rip them apart.

  • Jul 09, 2006

xandman

xandman

The King of Hearts

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blablablablabla! Booooooring! So much bullshit in this thread it makes my eyes go sore. But still...

people have been asking that question over and over for 2006 years now, and if they didn't get an answer then, what makes you think we'll get an answer now? Especially on a sub-site like Minitokyo. Also, God is Dog backwards, says pretty much, heh

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tobiast88

tobiast88

No patience for fools.

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Quote by Persocom01It's unfair to judge animals as better than man based on individual capablities. A cheetah is faster than man but can it use tools? A squid might have a "better" eye than man but can he build buildings? An ant can life 50 times it's own weight but it isn't remarkable once you understand physics. After all those example of animals being "better" than man can you state that animals are superior to man?

It is obvious that man has more dominion over the earth than any other animal. Mankind alone is capable of comprehending and questioning his existance, to commit suicide, to hold beliefs so dear that it surpasses the value of his life, and to deny himself of his desires. Which animal has trancended it's base instincts the way mankind has?

We certainly have morals. However we also have the right to decide to do evil. Mankind does not differ much on what he calls evil. He only differs much as to what evils he calls exusable. Animals follow their instincts. They do not know the concept of good and evil.

As for "It's like throwing a golf ball in the air, then marvelling at the fact that it landing on this particular patch of grass. The fallacy is that the golf ball would have landed anyway."...

Use your own common sense, and think for yourself, instead of relying on some infidels.org for arguments to point out others faults. You certainly cannot prove God exists, but you also cannot prove the negative. If you choose to believe that there is no God, so be it. Live your own life, but remember that with choice comes responsibility.

And your idea that man is superior to animal is on two bases: we build, and we think. It's unfair to judge humans superior on these two characteristics, just like you say it's unfair to judge animals as better than man based on individual capablities.

I do use my common sense, and I do think for myself. The metaphor I gave happens to frame my thoughts quite nicely, so I expressed it. You don't think for yourself, because a book written two thousand years ago dictates your life. So I repeat to you the advice you gave me: use your own common sense, and think for yourself, instead of relying on some old book for reasons to persecute other's perceived faults.

I do take responsibility for my actions and my life, instead of waiting for a hypothetic reward in a hypothetic afterlife. I build my happiness through the happiness of those around me; you do "good" to get into heaven.

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis, Litterature Nobel Prize winner.
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Azirk

Azirk

Parlez-vous Francais?

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The whole problem with the existence of God (I'll capitalize out of respect of the views of others) is that there is no explaination. The Big Bang created the universe... but where did this matter come from? One could say that it has always existed, which answers nothing, or one could say that God created it. Of course, then one might ask, where did God come from? And voila: "God has always been there." Of course this answer is redudant in proving the existence of God and is redundant compared to the two possible answers available to the existence of matter that was expelled from the Big Bang. There is no answer as of yet, thus our existence does not prove the existence of God.

With no proof one must not only simply believe in a God, he or she must also believe in certain intentions. I am an agnostic, bordering on Atheisim at times. My personal belief, by simply looking around the world and its happenings, is that either there is no God, or that God simply does not care of about the suffering of His creations. But to believe a gut feeling is different that believing evidence, is it not?

"Ambition is the last refuge of failure." -Oscar Wilde
The downfall of tyrants can be attributed to their cruelty to their subjects.
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  • Jul 10, 2006
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Woah... heated topic. Well just to put in my two cents: I don't believe in religiion at all. I don't think it has a place in this world because it will always interfere with the advancement of humans in science and technology. Different religions and different points of view *bam* debate over what humans can do and can't do... yada yada... we don't advance. Intelligent Design is an example of this argument.

  • Jul 10, 2006

CyberDragoon

The Prince of Nothing

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Quote by AzirkThe whole problem with the existence of God (I'll capitalize out of respect of the views of others) is that there is no explaination. The Big Bang created the universe... but where did this matter come from? One could say that it has always existed, which answers nothing, or one could say that God created it. Of course, then one might ask, where did God come from? And voila: "God has always been there." Of course this answer is redudant in proving the existence of God and is redundant compared to the two possible answers available to the existence of matter that was expelled from the Big Bang. There is no answer as of yet, thus our existence does not prove the existence of God.

With no proof one must not only simply believe in a God, he or she must also believe in certain intentions. I am an agnostic, bordering on Atheisim at times. My personal belief, by simply looking around the world and its happenings, is that either there is no God, or that God simply does not care of about the suffering of His creations. But to believe a gut feeling is different that believing evidence, is it not?

  • Jul 10, 2006

Yu-huang

Yu-huang

The Jade Emperor

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How We Can Know There Is a God? Simple answer, we don't.
Do you Believe in the Existence of God? Depends on what god you speak of.

When Darkness Falls, All is quiet in the Mist of the Night.

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